21 Sep 21
Do you have a ‘right’ to require me to Vax? You say I violate your Freedom?
OK, let’s say you do have the right. You feel I put you at risk, so, Biden can make me Vax.
When I drive my Jeep on the highway, and you are in incoming traffic, you are definitely at risk to getting killed by a head-on. 🚘
Should Biden apply the same logic in the car situation? No more driving on the highway?
@averagejoe1 saidIt’s really a very hard question to answer.
Do you have a ‘right’ to require me to Vax? You say I violate your Freedom?
OK, let’s say you do have the right. You feel I put you at risk, so, Biden can make me Vax.
When I drive my Jeep on the highway, and you are in incoming traffic, you are definitely at risk to getting killed by a head-on. 🚘
Should Biden apply the same logic in the car situation? No more driving on the highway?
Especially because a reasonable sized group of people choose to not believe the facts.
Take corona. From the Volkskrant (Saturday edition 18 sept. 2021) using RIVM track and trace information, they show that the vast majority of transmissions come through unvaccinated people.
They show that an unvaccinated person in a crowded room with vaccinated people can still spread the disease far more effectively than vaccinated people can.
The stats show that nearly all hospital admissions and IC admissions are unvaccinated people (costs to society, blocking regular planned treatment, etc) .
The stats also show that there are 4 to 8% of vaccinated people (depending on age group and vaccine used) who have little to no benefit from the vaccine (other than being less likely to catch corona from a vaccinated person), because their systems don’t build antibodies.
Statistically, then, choosing to not get vaccinated (obviously there will always be people who can’t get vaccinated due to various reasons, I’ll exclude them from this point) is choosing to be a potential danger to a lot of people. And a burden on the health system and to the tax payer.
But there is also personal freedom. One of the 4 main pillars of privacy is bodily privacy / integrity. You can’t have governments deciding what you should do with your body or not.
There is also personal responsibilty.
There is also societal responsibility (society creates rules and regulations to protect itself… think of laws, the police force, traffic lights… helmets, seatbelts… societal responsibility or a powerful insurance lobby? The truth is…. Probably a bit of both, eh.) .
So, society (read: the elected government) has to decide what to do. It’s basically a measuring act with no clear definition of right or wrong.
It can be argued that it’s best to protect the vulnerable and get everyone vaccinated.
It can be argued that life is life and you just accept the consequences (only when you can keep the health system working though. You seriously don’t want that to collapse; ie an option when an emergency situation is over).
Most countries will opt for a middle road. Mandate vaccinations in jobs and situations where people work with vulnerable people. And to nudge the rest with insentives and corona apps and the like.
As for the rest of your car analogy: it is illegal to drive head on into traffic, you have to wear a seatbelt, there are speed limits, cars have to have crash zones, etc.
Philosophically you are correct: the only way to stop car crashes is to remove cars. But to what expense and practicality? So they choose to make it as safe as possible.
The next step being AI cars, removing the human component.
It is all just a weighing up of benefits versus drawbacks. And then hoping to do what’s best.
Hence plan-do-check-act cycles. To see what worked and learn from mistakes. In the hope that in a next situation we do it better.
21 Sep 21
@shavixmir said"They show that an unvaccinated person in a crowded room with vaccinated people can still spread the disease far more effectively than vaccinated people can."
It’s really a very hard question to answer.
Especially because a reasonable sized group of people choose to not believe the facts.
Take corona. From the Volkskrant (Saturday edition 18 sept. 2021) using RIVM track and trace information, they show that the vast majority of transmissions come through unvaccinated people.
They show that an unvaccinated person in a crowd ...[text shortened]... s. To see what worked and learn from mistakes. In the hope that in a next situation we do it better.
That has not been proven. Your article is purely theoretical.
Prove it using data from Israel.
21 Sep 21
@shavixmir saidThat seemed like a pretty well thought out answer...so I give you applause.
It’s really a very hard question to answer.
Especially because a reasonable sized group of people choose to not believe the facts.
Take corona. From the Volkskrant (Saturday edition 18 sept. 2021) using RIVM track and trace information, they show that the vast majority of transmissions come through unvaccinated people.
They show that an unvaccinated person in a crowd ...[text shortened]... s. To see what worked and learn from mistakes. In the hope that in a next situation we do it better.
I have a question as well...
A well thought out answer would be appreciated as well.
Every person I know that is a liberal democrat (and I know many) has asked me if I am vaccinated. And when I tell them it's just not something I do...they all want to chastise...i.e. social shame me...for not doing so. One lady I know even said to my face...You aren't very smart!
So...my question is...why is it only the Democrats who seem to be in the face of the 'unvaccinated'? No one on the right asks me if I'm vaccinated.
So...isn't this just really another political divide? And if so...to what end? Now...let me just say this: I drive ...alot...mostly that is what I do. So what I am seeing in Dallas traffic is that the vast majority of drivers are speeding. Driving the speed limit is the law. It is also socially responsible because most accidents involve excessive speed. The vast majority means...most Republicans and most Democrats...so how is it then that the Democrats seem to think they need to shame me into caring about spreading a virus...which I haven't even come into contact with...but at the same time they are good with putting my life and everyone else on the road around them in harms way...just because they are in a hurry?
@metal-brain saidNope.
"They show that an unvaccinated person in a crowded room with vaccinated people can still spread the disease far more effectively than vaccinated people can."
That has not been proven. Your article is purely theoretical.
Prove it using data from Israel.
The RIVM is Dutch. And it uses Dutch data.
The article is not purely theoretical. It just gives you information you don’t like.
As for Israel. Here, from the same newspaper: https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/uitbraak-in-israel-toont-aan-vaccinatie-garandeert-geen-coronavrij-bestaan~b29853369/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.nl%2F
Using official Israeli statistics (in August):
21 out 100 thousand vaccinated people over 60 get seriously ill from Covid.
180 out of 100 thousand unvaccinated people over 60 get seriously ill from Covid.
Do the maths.
https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/80-of-vaccinated-covid-carriers-didnt-spread-virus-in-public-spaces-report/amp/
Research in Israel also shows that the majority of transmissions come from unvaccinated people. The above is a link to a news item, because I can’t be bothered going to anymore trouble for you.
You refuse to see the facts, clinging to your insane ideas.
My previous post is about decision making by governments based on the facts they have at their disposal, combined with ethical issues such as privacy.
If you can’t comprehend that, stay away from the topic.
21 Sep 21
@joc44 saidThat is due to political polarisation.
That seemed like a pretty well thought out answer...so I give you applause.
I have a question as well...
A well thought out answer would be appreciated as well.
Every person I know that is a liberal democrat (and I know many) has asked me if I am vaccinated. And when I tell them it's just not something I do...they all want to chastise...i.e. social shame me...for not doing ...[text shortened]... g my life and everyone else on the road around them in harms way...just because they are in a hurry?
This is a fad that’s been going on in the US since the 70’s and only getting worse.
What happens is I make a choice. Now you can agree with my choice or not. You can respect my choice or not. In a normal situation, my choice would not make you disrespect me as a person.
So, say we’re in a restaurant. And I choose to eat a steak instead of salmon. You don’t like steak. So you’d joke about my choice and we’d eat our seperate dishes and enjoy each other’s company. No problemo.
Now, say I state, in that same situation: You eat meat? Meat is murder. I’m going to eat a salad.
You see the rabbit hole that’s gonna open there…
Now, normally, a person wouldn’t say: “meat is murder” when dining out. Why politicise a meal?
And normally, if someone said something like that at a dinner, you’d say: “well, that’s your opinion. Do you mind me eating meat? Or would you prefer me to go vegetarian tonight as well?”
You de-escalate the situation. What’s it to you to eat one vegetarian meal a month?
But, because of polarisation in your society and the politicising of every subject, that strange little sentence becomes an ever increasing rip in communication, with noone being able to backtrack or de-escalate.
And that’s what you’re seeing with the vaccination debate. A divide along political lines on subject matter which is scientific and individual.
In a vaccum of unacceptance for each others opinions, where each other’s opinions reflects directly upon them… instead of just being an opinion.
@shavixmir saidThen why do the Most-Vaxxed Countries have the most cases?
Nope.
The RIVM is Dutch. And it uses Dutch data.
The article is not purely theoretical. It just gives you information you don’t like.
As for Israel. Here, from the same newspaper: https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/uitbraak-in-israel-toont-aan-vaccinatie-garandeert-geen-coronavrij-bestaan~b29853369/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.nl%2F
Using official ...[text shortened]... mbined with ethical issues such as privacy.
If you can’t comprehend that, stay away from the topic.
https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/worrying-me-quite-bit-mrna-vaccine-inventor-shares-viral-thread-showing-covid-surge-most
@joc44 saidI am not a Democrat and I certainly don't support many of there policies. But I do believe that the government can put restrictions on people to prevent dangerous situations like a pandemic. So the government can require that if you want to go to a crowded stadium or a crowded restaurant that you need to be vaccinated. If you want to grow your own food and stay away from everyone the you can have your own freedom.
That seemed like a pretty well thought out answer...so I give you applause.
I have a question as well...
A well thought out answer would be appreciated as well.
Every person I know that is a liberal democrat (and I know many) has asked me if I am vaccinated. And when I tell them it's just not something I do...they all want to chastise...i.e. social shame me...for not doing ...[text shortened]... g my life and everyone else on the road around them in harms way...just because they are in a hurry?
Similarly if you are on a US highway you need to drive on the right side of the double yellow lines. If you have your own private road you can drive on the left side all day long. However, if you want to engage in activities with others there are rules to make it safe for all. Vaccines during a pandemic are simply one of those rules.
@averagejoe1 saidDo you have a ‘right’ to require me to Vax? You say I violate your Freedom? OK, let’s say you do have the right. You feel I put you at risk, so, Biden can make me Vax.
Do you have a ‘right’ to require me to Vax? You say I violate your Freedom?
OK, let’s say you do have the right. You feel I put you at risk, so, Biden can make me Vax.
When I drive my Jeep on the highway, and you are in incoming traffic, you are definitely at risk to getting killed by a head-on. 🚘
Should Biden apply the same logic in the car situation? No more driving on the highway?
Dear Joe - I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here, but let's try this:
A. No one, including me, is going to force you to get COVID vaccinations.
B. No one, including me, is out to take your freedom away.
C. No one, including Joe Biden, me or anyone else, cares about your jeep, your highway, or the incoming traffic.
D. As I said in 2 earlier posts; if you're anti-vax or anti mask, it's A-OK with me. You have the God given right to put your health at risk if you choose to do so.
E. No one, including Joe Biden, me, the Liberals, the deep state (whatever that is) the government, the CIA, FBI, NSA, CDC, the illuminati, freemasons, trade unions, lemonade stand, or hot dog cart vendors is going to hold a gun to your head and stick you with a needle.
So, sooth your ruffled feathers. The big, bad Liberals are not out to take your freedom, your gun, your jeep, or your highway away.
Got it now?? 🙂
21 Sep 21
@shavixmir
The only thing I disagree with in your answer was that this is a fad. Fad's are fleeting.
This has been going on for decades. And I have lived through it.. I remember my English teacher in high school telling us how the Soviet Union was just like the United States...everyone has a TV, everyone has boom boxes, they all just go about living their lives going where they want, doing what they do. And then I read a book, A Day in the Life of Alexander Solzenheitzen.
We have been on a Socialist bound train for decades...slowly but surely making a stop into the lives of every American citizen. It seems like America is now the only tour stop for this train since most other countries have already subscribed to a lifetime member ship.
You are correct...it is totally politicized. The real question is a personal one. How many people have I killed since the Pandemic started? The answer..none. When we start blaming each other for spreading a virus...that is a real slippery slope. Reminiscent of the Salem Witch Hunts. The other question is, Who is whipping this AntiVaxxer conversation into a personal emotional hate topic? And why?
21 Sep 21
@averagejoe1 said"Do you have a ‘right’ to require me to Vax?"
Do you have a ‘right’ to require me to Vax? You say I violate your Freedom?
OK, let’s say you do have the right. You feel I put you at risk, so, Biden can make me Vax.
When I drive my Jeep on the highway, and you are in incoming traffic, you are definitely at risk to getting killed by a head-on. 🚘
Should Biden apply the same logic in the car situation? No more driving on the highway?
yes
"You say I violate your Freedom?"
yes
"When I drive my Jeep on the highway, and you are in incoming traffic, you are definitely at risk to getting killed by a head-on. 🚘 "
Yet you are not allowed to drive on the wrong side of the road, or on the sidewalk or attach metal spike to your car. You are not allowed to drive a clunker that spews black smoke, you are required to have a car that conforms to some standards and doesn't endanger others.
"Should Biden apply the same logic in the car situation? No more driving on the highway?"
It's not the same situation. You are allowed to drive on the highway as long as you conform to some rules. The rule to go to a restaurant or a mall or office is to be vaccinated. You are also required to wear clothes, no matter how much you complain about someone infringing on your freedom to be naked.
21 Sep 21
@joc44 said"We have been on a Socialist bound train for decades"
@shavixmir
The only thing I disagree with in your answer was that this is a fad. Fad's are fleeting.
This has been going on for decades. And I have lived through it.. I remember my English teacher in high school telling us how the Soviet Union was just like the United States...everyone has a TV, everyone has boom boxes, they all just go about living their lives going wher ...[text shortened]... ion is, Who is whipping this AntiVaxxer conversation into a personal emotional hate topic? And why?
Yeh, that's why the US military budget keeps increasing, minimum wage stays the same, tax cuts for the rich keep getting passed, corporations and Wall Street are deregulated, you start and maintain wars, give subsidies to dirty industries, can't manage to pass reasonable gun control, can't get money out of politics and republicans control the supreme court.
Socialism is winning!!!
Common, say Obama was a socialist 😀. I want the cherry on top of your ignorance sundae
21 Sep 21
@shavixmir saidApplauds to Shav, a great post. Of course there is no right answer, given govt dictates that scare people like me to death, (like, what will they tell us what to do next...). But, yours is a good treatise on the conundrum we face and a good mix on the conflicts to overcome.
It’s really a very hard question to answer.
Especially because a reasonable sized group of people choose to not believe the facts.
Take corona. From the Volkskrant (Saturday edition 18 sept. 2021) using RIVM track and trace information, they show that the vast majority of transmissions come through unvaccinated people.
They show that an unvaccinated person in a crowd ...[text shortened]... s. To see what worked and learn from mistakes. In the hope that in a next situation we do it better.
21 Sep 21
@zahlanzi saidDon't get me wrong, I think everyone should be vaccinated. My problem is that I do not think the government should dictate it, or dictate much of anything. That would be a force, taking my Freedom. Force of a government upon its citizens. That is the crux of this post,... I am using Covid Vax as an example of this, and I think that liberals seem to be OK with it.
"Do you have a ‘right’ to require me to Vax?"
yes
"You say I violate your Freedom?"
yes
"When I drive my Jeep on the highway, and you are in incoming traffic, you are definitely at risk to getting killed by a head-on. 🚘 "
Yet you are not allowed to drive on the wrong side of the road, or on the sidewalk or attach metal spike to your car. You are not allowed to drive a c ...[text shortened]... wear clothes, no matter how much you complain about someone infringing on your freedom to be naked.
Zhalanzi says here that one person has a right to require another person to Vax. Then he says that if I don't Vax, that I violate his Freedom. I'm Minding my own business, but I am some how subject to his rules?.
Does everyone agree with that?
I do think that we can stipulate that if a person has a business, he can require Vax of anyone who comes in. Delta can do the same on its planes. I can do the same at my house.
The 'jeep' thing is not a great analogy, but it points up the many things where we are all subject to some risks, which gives rise to the question........How far can a govt. go in telling people what to do, or not do, especially with their bodies?
21 Sep 21
@AverageJoe1
So the unvaxxed listen to their influencers like Trump, who says get vaxxed but at the same time downplaying the virus.