@averagejoe1 saidThe mandate is to get vaccinated OR get tested very frequently. Businesses should have the right to insist on vaccination if you want to work for them. It's a health issue just like insisting on washing your hands before handling food or wearing gloves when dishing out food. If people like you were a significant minority in the 1950's when polio was around, we would still have people living in iron lungs. Hospitals are currently overflowing with unvaccinated Covid patients. Just hope you do not need emergency care due to an accident or illness. The only positive is that the unvaccinated are dying and thus removing themselves from both the gene and voting pool.
Do you have a ‘right’ to require me to Vax? You say I violate your Freedom?
OK, let’s say you do have the right. You feel I put you at risk, so, Biden can make me Vax.
When I drive my Jeep on the highway, and you are in incoming traffic, you are definitely at risk to getting killed by a head-on. 🚘
Should Biden apply the same logic in the car situation? No more driving on the highway?
@zahlanzi saidMilitary has to increase budget to remain the greatest military in the world, and to protect simple lands like Romania, which could never protect itself.
"We have been on a Socialist bound train for decades"
Yeh, that's why the US military budget keeps increasing, minimum wage stays the same, tax cuts for the rich keep getting passed, corporations and Wall Street are deregulated, you start and maintain wars, give subsidies to dirty industries, can't manage to pass reasonable gun control, can't get money out of politics and r ...[text shortened]... ng!!!
Common, say Obama was a socialist 😀. I want the cherry on top of your ignorance sundae
You are incorrect that minimum wage 'stays the same'...poor elocution.
Tax cuts were for Everyone, which caused average income of middle class to increase by over $5000 in the last 4 years,. Do you think the rich should have not gotten one? Punish their successes? Of course you do, Zahlanzi.
You are correct, Trump did indeed de-regulate. Resulting in creation of millions of new jobs. Whew.
Don't get you on 'starting and maintaining wars. Elaborate?
Subsidies, though not perfect, have been a great idea. You wouldn't' believe the food choices in our grocery stores. You should study up on subsidies, incorporate it into Romania, you guys could be somebody.
You are correct, we have managed to defeat gun control. What else would you recommend ??? Government Control of guns??
You are correct, it is impossible for any country to get money out of politics. What is your point? There is no money in Romanian politics?? How so?
Our Constitution has controlled how our SCOTUS justices are selected for the court. Today, it has provided that of all 9, that about 5 of them are Republicans. So, Zahlanzi, do you want us to change the constitution to make the court the way that you and other liberals want it to be? Why, I have never heard of anyone over here in the west suggesting such a thing. Well, that is, until Socialists such as yourself have made their ideas and wishes known to us over here. Wow. You fellers sure are different than we are. Do you have a gun? Hopefully it is not controlled by your weennie government.
So,, what else is on your mind? Socialist.
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@averagejoe1 saidIt certainly is within a government's scope to make laws which control behaviour and / or protect people's health.
Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should be vaccinated. My problem is that I do not think the government should dictate it, or dictate much of anything. That would be a force, taking my Freedom. Force of a government upon its citizens. That is the crux of this post,... I am using Covid Vax as an example of this, and I think that liberals seem to be OK with it.
...[text shortened]... .......How far can a govt. go in telling people what to do, or not do, especially with their bodies?
So, in that respect, I don't see much of an issue with a vaccine mandate as such.
However, it is somebody's actual body. And there are privacy issues to that.
That being said, so long as there's oversight on government (various chambers, for example, which do due dillegence and hold government accountable), then it's as kosher as it's going to get.
But, as I wrote in my first post in this thread: Plan-do-check-act.
@averagejoe1 saidI am glad we have OSHA rules and regulations to protect workers from dangerous business practices. I am glad we have the FDA so I can be reasonably confident that the food and drugs I purchase are safe. These are government agencies that impinge on the freedom of businesses to make money by forcing them to implement costly practices that protect workers and consumers. I am glad the government mandates that you can't drive while intoxicated or drive as fast as you like. Most drunk drivers do not injure others. Most who speed do not get in accidents. However, enough in both categories do cause injury and death to many and so we have laws that infringe on personal freedoms to protect the majority. You seem to want anarchy. Most of us do not. Unfortunately the US is a plutocracy, government by the wealthy. The Democrats refuse to buck Big Pharma because they need their big donations just as much as Republicans. Both parties have been pretty much bought. Who do you think profited from the 20 year Afghanistan war and all wars the US created since WWII? Eisenhower said it best in his farewell address: "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist." "Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of ploughshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions."
Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should be vaccinated. My problem is that I do not think the government should dictate it, or dictate much of anything. That would be a force, taking my Freedom. Force of a government upon its citizens. That is the crux of this post,... I am using Covid Vax as an example of this, and I think that liberals seem to be OK with it.
...[text shortened]... .......How far can a govt. go in telling people what to do, or not do, especially with their bodies?
That vast industry made billions of dollars from our wars. I doubt there was truly much interest in spreading democracy or saving people in other lands from dictators. China has managed to become a world power economically and militarily without engaging in any costly foreign military conflicts for 70 years. I doubt the US will stop engaging in costly military actions as major producers of military equipment have extreme political power.
@phranny saidThe 'or get tested' doesn't work. D'quansis passes the test on Monday, catches COVID monday night and spreads it all week.
The mandate is to get vaccinated OR get tested very frequently. Businesses should have the right to insist on vaccination if you want to work for them. It's a health issue just like insisting on washing your hands before handling food or wearing gloves when dishing out food. If people like you were a significant minority in the 1950's when polio was around, we would still ha ...[text shortened]... is that the unvaccinated are dying and thus removing themselves from both the gene and voting pool.
Yes businesses can tell employees to do anything they want them to do, that is a given.
I dont follow your polio point, the govt did not REQUIRE and Force people to do it,? That is my issue. Government control. Prob the overriding issue of all posts between libs and cons, no matter the subject matter. Libs love nanny governments
You may be correct that the Federal government cannot insist on people being vaccinated but SCOTUS has allowed states and public schools to demand that people be vaccinated. Unfortunately, citizens in the US were more likely to trust science in the 1950's than they are today. It has occurred to me that because teaching has been so underpaid and disrespected, it is attracting less competent people to go into the profession.
@averagejoe1 saidAs for the first point: no, it’s not perfect. It’s just as good as it is going to get.
The 'or get tested' doesn't work. D'quansis passes the test on Monday, catches COVID monday night and spreads it all week.
Yes businesses can tell employees to do anything they want them to do, that is a given.
I dont follow your polio point, the govt did not REQUIRE and Force people to do it,? That is my issue. Government control. Prob the overriding issue of all posts between libs and cons, no matter the subject matter. Libs love nanny governments
I don’t know about polio, but I’m pretty sure small pox, in many countries, was obligated.
You want to be an F-16 pilot (okay, maybe that’s an out-dated aircraft), you can’t wear glasses.
If you want to be air-controller… be under 27 or bloody well forget it.
You want to work with kids… better not have a paedophile past.
There are multiple requirements for various jobs. I initially wanted to be a fireman. Alas, I suffer from extreme fear of heights (falling); slightly different than vertigo. No go buddy.
And so governments, organisations, etc. decide what is needed and you either adhere to it. Or you don’t party.
You don’t like the choices? Next election vote for somebody else.
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@phranny saidCorrect on all counts, the feds can certainly control their employees, like businesses can control theirs. States likewise can do the same with employees and public schools. We all agree, and I agree with he concept.
You may be correct that the Federal government cannot insist on people being vaccinated but SCOTUS has allowed states and public schools to demand that people be vaccinated. Unfortunately, citizens in the US were more likely to trust science in the 1950's than they are today. It has occurred to me that because teaching has been so underpaid and disrespected, it is attracting less competent people to go into the profession.
In such a social environment, then, my personal freedoms are still protected. I can choose to work for government, or to send my kids to public schools, and be subject to any 'loss of freedom', but that is my choice.
It appears that the liberal mindset here feels that I should not have a choice. The federal government can tell me to Vax. I disagree. Why? Because they would just be getting started. Next they will limit how many shotgun shells I can buy. They may limit the amount of soft drinks I can drink. ( I am being facetious, they have already tried that, for god sakes.).
I appreciate Phranny's other post above, well thought out. And Shav is amazing today, must have had a lobotomy! Or someone is writing some mighty fine prose for him.
@shavixmir saidExactly. Just be involved to get the right people in government. You are on it. And let us distinguish a 'law', dictating such things as required vaccines, would be QUITE different than some rogue president, with his 'authority' (Brrrr) issuing a mandate from his desk in the Oval Office.
As for the first point: no, it’s not perfect. It’s just as good as it is going to get.
I don’t know about polio, but I’m pretty sure small pox, in many countries, was obligated.
You want to be an F-16 pilot (okay, maybe that’s an out-dated aircraft), you can’t wear glasses.
If you want to be air-controller… be under 27 or bloody well forget it.
You want to work with ...[text shortened]... here to it. Or you don’t party.
You don’t like the choices? Next election vote for somebody else.
If 540 legislators make a law that we have to get vaccinated, having been lobbied by scientists, geneticists, doctors, etc, ole' AvJoe would have to relent, that they know more than I do, and I would roll up my sleeve.
I am not going to roll up my sleeve for a senile old man, when his handlers, whom we do not know, are making the decision.
Time to build a barricade.
@averagejoe1 said"I think everyone should abstain from sword fighting to the death. My problem is that i do not think the government should dictate it, or dictate much of anything. That would be a force, taking my freedom to sword fight to the death. Force of a government upon its citizens. "
Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should be vaccinated. My problem is that I do not think the government should dictate it, or dictate much of anything. That would be a force, taking my Freedom. Force of a government upon its citizens. That is the crux of this post,... I am using Covid Vax as an example of this, and I think that liberals seem to be OK with it.
...[text shortened]... .......How far can a govt. go in telling people what to do, or not do, especially with their bodies?
"Zhalanzi says here that one person has a right to require another person to Vax. "
By what right does one person demand people stop hacking each other with swords, medieval style. Oh yeah, for the same reason you can't drive on the sidewalk or serve expired food in restaurants.
"Then he says that if I don't Vax, that I violate his Freedom"
Yes. You are keeping a pandemic alive and if you get sick you clog up a hospital bed and maybe take up the spot for someone who needs it. Like, say, someone whose appendix ruptured who can't get in a hospital because they are overcrowded with mouth breathers screaming personal freedom. Even though vaccines mandates have been around for years.
"How far can a govt. go in telling people what to do, or not do, especially with their bodies?"
In Texas, way too far. But then again, you don't care about that. It doesn't affect you personally, just some woman who had the bad luck to be born in Texas and too poor to leave.
@averagejoe1 saidwhoosh, there goes the point. over your head.
Military has to increase budget to remain the greatest military in the world, and to protect simple lands like Romania, which could never protect itself.
You are incorrect that minimum wage 'stays the same'...poor elocution.
Tax cuts were for Everyone, which caused average income of middle class to increase by over $5000 in the last 4 years,. Do you think the rich sho ...[text shortened]... led by your weennie government.
So,, what else is on your mind? Socialist.
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@quackquack saidYou have been duped if you think covid is a serious threat to healthy people under 50.
I am not a Democrat and I certainly don't support many of there policies. But I do believe that the government can put restrictions on people to prevent dangerous situations like a pandemic. So the government can require that if you want to go to a crowded stadium or a crowded restaurant that you need to be vaccinated. If you want to grow your own food and stay away fr ...[text shortened]... there are rules to make it safe for all. Vaccines during a pandemic are simply one of those rules.
@mghrn55 saidSure, force them to be vaxxed should you feel so controlling. There is zero need to force it on younger people.
So ........ then the conversation switches to people over 50.
Begin......
Instead we need to educate people on the need for proper diet, exercise and important vitamin supplementation if needed. This would help out everyone.
@eladar saidSoooooo ........ your notion of freedom is selective.
Sure, force them to be vaxxed should you feel so controlling. There is zero need to force it on younger people.
Instead we need to educate people on the need for proper diet, exercise and important vitamin supplementation if needed. This would help out everyone.
Exactly what I have been saying all along.
"Freedom" is nothing more than a punchline for some of you.
Once you get a government that gives you the freedom you want, then you get to exercise it.
Reproductive rights for women
Same sex marriage
etc, etc,