@Rajk999 said"Public bureaucracy"? Are you trying to argue that a well-known dictatorship like Cuba practices collective decision-making with its citizens?
In practice, while the Constitution states state property belongs to "all the people," the most important decisions are made by higher leadership levels and managed by public bureaucracy.
Yes or no: are you?
Because if you are, you are either ignorant or dishonest. Which is it?
@vivify saidYeah .. the old, worn out and failed, 'No True Scotsman' argument. Keep that to yourself.
"Public bureaucracy"? Are you trying to argue that a well-known dictatorship like Cuba practices collective decision-making with its citizens?
Yes or no: are you?
Because if you are, you are either ignorant or dishonest. Which is it?
If these systems have all been tried dozens of times since Marx/Engels, and it has never produced anything but failure, clearly proponents of socialist systems are nuts.
No True Scotsman is a cop out ... Im outta here... bye.
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@Rajk999 saidSo you refuse to answer a simple yes/no question. As expected.
Yeah .. the old, worn out and failed, 'No True Scotsman' argument. Keep that to yourself.
If these systems have all been tried dozens of times since Marx/Engels, and it has never produced anything but failure, clearly proponents of socialist systems are nuts.
No True Scotsman is a cop out ... Im outta here... bye.
Here's what YOU posted about socialism:
"Its primary goal is to ensure equitable distribution and meet human needs rather than maximizing profit".
Does that sound like an authoritarian regime that executes dissenters?
You've ignored your own definitions for socialism, now you're running away from the thread. As expected.
@vivify saidIm assuming you are a 5 yr old ... Countries that have tried socialism have these goals at the outset. They have all failed miserably. This failure does not and can not negate their initial intention. You cannot now say that these systems have never been tried. They have failed and there is no excuse.
So you refuse to answer a simple yes/no question. As expected.
Here's the definition YOU posted about socialism:
"Its primary goal is to ensure equitable distribution and meet human needs rather than maximizing profit".
Does that sound like an authoritarian regime that executes dissenters?
You've ignored your own definitions twice, now you're running away from the thread. As expected.
This is the 'No True Scotsman' argument which is only put forward when people have failed to make their case.
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@Rajk999 saidThis is getting boring.
Im assuming you are a 5 yr old ... Countries that have tried socialism have these goals at the outset. They have all failed miserably. This failure does not and can not negate their initial intention. You cannot now say that these systems have never been tried. They have failed and there is no excuse.
This is the 'No True Scotsman' argument which is only put forward when people have failed to make their case.
Last time: which "socialist" country made decisions with the community as a whole to manage its resources?
You won't answer it because you can't. End thread.
@vivify saidWhat the hell do I care what these stupid governments do? They are failures. They all start off proclaiming they are socialist or communist or Marxist and condemning capitalism and then they proceed to fail. You figure out what they are. I am going with what they proclaim themselves to be.
This is getting boring.
Last time: which "socialist" country made decisions with the community as a whole to manage it's resources?
You won't answer it because you can't. End thread.
Here are the comments from Fidel Castro back in the 1960s when he set up his communist party. From Perplexity AI
************************
1. Fidel Castro's Personal Declaration (December 2, 1961)
"I am a Marxist-Leninist and I will be a Marxist-Leninist until the last day of my life."
He also stated:
"The world is on the road toward communism and I am taking Cuba down that path."
2. Socialist Character Proclaimed (April 16, 1961)
During the Bay of Pigs invasion, Castro proclaimed the socialist character of the Revolution on April 16, 1961 — this date was later adopted as the official founding date of the Communist Party of Cuba. The official document states:
"April 16, 1961, the day on which the socialist character of our Revolution was proclaimed"
3. Communist Party Founded Later (1965)
The Communist Party of Cuba was formally organized in 1965 (not 1961), by Fidel Castro and others. The party statutes note:
"The Communist Party of Cuba came into being as the result of the closest union of all revolutionary forces projected toward socialism"
Key Distinction:
- 1961: Castro personally declared he was Marxist-Leninist; revolution proclaimed socialist
- 1965: Communist Party of Cuba formally founded
- 1976: Became the only permitted party under Cuba's constitution
**********************************
@Rajk999 saidYour definition. You posted it. Go back and read what you wrote (or rather, what you copied from AI)
Like vivify you are using your own definition of socialism. So nobody can carry on a decent discussion with people like youall when your words have meanings all over the place... its pointless.
Anyway a government that holds a small %, in the case of the US it is around 10%, stake in private essential industries is by no stretch of the imagination socialism. You are as usual delusional and twisted.
Socialist governments are not defined by the services it provides. Socialist governments are defined by their control over the means of production and distribution of resources. Trump is proposing to have the government buy stakes in AI companies and dole out the profits to citizens. Small percentage, big percentage, meaningless, its the path to socialist governance.
@wildgrass saidHey. If Trump is a socialist, then the word "socialism" has become meaningless. Socialists want government ownership and control of the economy. Trump advocates private ownership, lower taxes, deregulation, and free enterprise. You may not like his policies, but disagreement isn't the same thing as socialism.
Regarding AI: 'There’s so much money and it’s so big that there are concepts where pieces could be given to the American public. The American public essentially becomes a partner with the companies'
Did Bernie Sanders say that? Nope, Trump did. And me means it. Public ownership and control of the means of production. Where have we heard that before?
🤔
Call me craz ...[text shortened]... taxes.
https://www.politico.com/news/2026/06/05/ai-companies-white-house-profit-sharing-00952167
This is of course fact, so you would have to really go back to your first paragraph and tell us what in the hell you’re talking about , with this out-of-context Crap, which he certainly did not say.
@AverageJoe1
That pesky free enterprise, it does stick in one ‘s craw. Oh, could it happen that the Chinese end up owning some of our Enterprises? Downer
@AverageJoe1 saidRead the OP! Dang nabbit. It's a direct quote from Trump, could've been said by Karl Marx.
Hey. If Trump is a socialist, then the word "socialism" has become meaningless. Socialists want government ownership and control of the economy. Trump advocates private ownership, lower taxes, deregulation, and free enterprise. You may not like his policies, but disagreement isn't the same thing as socialism.
This is of course fact, so you would have to really go b ...[text shortened]... t in the hell you’re talking about , with this out-of-context Crap, which he certainly did not say.
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@wildgrass saidYou need to show a link where Trump said it.
Did you read the quote in the OP? It came from MAGA not Democrats.
Get real mate.
My daughter just showed me that AI is sometimes wrong.
And we are not interested in the way they do things in Scandinavia
Oh, with one exception… Show us any place in the world where socialism has worked. Seems like everybody breathed over that one.
You will of course name place or the country. If you write a sentence, then that will not be an answer.
@AverageJoe1 saidI put the link in the OP. Yes. You and mott and raj are replying to this topic with confidence but without even reading the OP.
You need to show a link where Trump said it.
My daughter just showed me that AI is sometimes wrong.
And we are not interested in the way they do things in Scandinavia
Oh, with one exception… Show us any place in the world where socialism has worked. Seems like everybody breathed over that one.
You will of course name place or the country. If you write a sentence, then that will not be an answer.
It's not the first time he's suggested it either. This is just the latest attempt to get the federal govt ownership stakes in business.
@Rajk999 saidIf it's tried and failed so many times before, why arent we in universal condemnation of trump when he suggests trying it. This seems simple..government should not be owners of companies and distributing profits to citizens.
Yeah .. the old, worn out and failed, 'No True Scotsman' argument. Keep that to yourself.
If these systems have all been tried dozens of times since Marx/Engels, and it has never produced anything but failure, clearly proponents of socialist systems are nuts.
No True Scotsman is a cop out ... Im outta here... bye.
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@wildgrass saidYes, I did overlook the link. And you are correct. This is why I’m correct only 96% of the time.
I put the link in the OP. Yes. You and mott and raj are replying to this topic with confidence but without even reading the OP.
It's not the first time he's suggested it either. This is just the latest attempt to get the federal govt ownership stakes in business.
So here we are. Skipping the word socialism for a moment because no one can define it, it appears that Donald wants to spread the wealth around. If you could possibly stay on course with a discussion, this would be a seminal topic.
So with all of these writings, everyone sees that Donald wants to spread the wealth around. Am I right so far. Then why do you not praise Trump for this effort.?? Being champions with Bernie of spreading the wealth around. What in God‘s name is wrong with you people.? Come on, you can do this, be the first man on the forum to say Trump is on the right track.