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  1. Zugzwang
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    09 Jul '14 20:58
    Originally posted by Sicilian Sausage to GrampyBobby
    Some common courtesy mixed with completely outdated chauvenism here methinks.
    This thread's title misled me into assuming it probably was about wildlife.

    The original post implies that every lady's supposed to trust any available
    gentleman to protect her. 'Acting like a lady' (traditional advice to women)
    has been to expect such protection and trust a powerful man to provide it.
    But in many cases 'gentlemen' selfishly have enjoyed taking advantage
    (financially, sexually, or otherwise) of naively trusting ladies. Indeed, if a
    contemporary man keeps acting with exaggerated 'chivalry', even when a
    woman has told him it's unnecessary, on a date, then that shows he has
    some rigid traditional attitudes toward women. And some modern women
    have been warned that 'gentlemen' with such attitudes ("the man always
    knows what's best for the woman", ignoring or disrespecting what she wants)
    could be more likely to be dangerous.

    Now if one would like to object that 'no true gentleman would ever a mistreat
    a lady', then one should learn about the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

    Yet I can recall this saying:
    'Being a female is a matter of birth.
    Being a woman is a matter of age.
    Being a lady is a matter of choice.'
  2. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    09 Jul '14 22:24
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    This thread's title misled me into assuming it probably was about wildlife.

    The original post implies that every lady's supposed to trust any available
    gentleman to protect her. 'Acting like a lady' (traditional advice to women)
    has been to expect such protection and trust a powerful man to provide it.
    But in many cases 'gentlemen' selfishly have enjoy ...[text shortened]... emale is a matter of birth.
    Being a woman is a matter of age.
    Being a lady is a matter of choice.'
    "For the practice of wearing a kilt without undergarments, see True Scotsman. No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing" ), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing" ),[2] creating an implied tautology. It can also be used to create unnecessary requirements by adding "true" or "real" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

    Greetings, Duchess; thanks for your reply. Would you care to comment further on the referenced wiki site text above?
  3. Standard memberDeepThought
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    09 Jul '14 23:00
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    This thread's title misled me into assuming it probably was about wildlife.

    The original post implies that every lady's supposed to trust any available
    gentleman to protect her. 'Acting like a lady' (traditional advice to women)
    has been to expect such protection and trust a powerful man to provide it.
    But in many cases 'gentlemen' selfishly have en ...[text shortened]... e is a matter of birth.
    Being a woman is a matter of age.
    Being a lady is a matter of choice.'
    My Grandma had this definition of a Gentleman (and by symmetry a Lady) - someone who is never unintentionally rude.
  4. Zugzwang
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    09 Jul '14 23:032 edits
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    "For the practice of wearing a kilt without undergarments, see True Scotsman. No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing" ), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this ...[text shortened]... thanks for your reply. Would you care to comment further on the referenced wiki site text above?
    I don't know how much more I need to add for purposes of clarification.
    I was making an analogy between a 'no true Scotsman' and a 'no true
    gentleman' kind of argument.

    The original post implies that it's always to a lady's benefit, if not her
    necessity, to associate with a gentleman. (This seems to assume that a
    lady could always readily distinguish a gentleman from, say, a cad, and I
    would submit that it's not always that simple.) I dispute this proposition.
    I have observed that many self-declared 'gentlemen' selfishly have taken
    advantage of vulnerably trusting 'ladies'. I anticipated this objection,
    'No true gentleman would ever mistreat a lady', by referring to a similar
    objection in the case of a 'No true Scotsman' kind of argument.

    The original post's criteria for a 'gentleman' seems too superficial for me.
    I would rather trust some men with rougher manners over other men who
    seem to have perfected the art of smooth deception or refined dishonesty.

    And I would like to add one point. The original post has emphasized every
    gentleman's obligations to act in certain ways toward the 'ladies'. But would
    every gentleman perceive every woman (or just some) as a real 'lady'?
    What would happen when a 'gentleman' encountered a woman whom he
    regarded as unworthy of being treated like a 'lady'? In medieval Europe,
    there was a code of conduct for knights (and gentleman of high status)
    emphasizing chivalry toward the 'ladies', women of sufficiently high status.
    But a knight who might feel honoured to be allowed to kiss a lady's hand
    also might well feel entitled to take a peasant girl by force and rape her
    because she definitely was not a 'lady' to him.

    I know that feminism (or expanding women's rights and opportunities) often
    has been blamed for the apparent decline of 'ladies' and 'gentlemen' behaving
    as old etiquette manuals instructed them to behave. While I can be enough
    of an old-fashioned romantic at heart to feel a sense of loss about the decline
    of courtship (now it's widely called 'hooking up'!) in modern Western cultures,
    on the whole I feel better that feminism has gained ground and the code
    of 'chivalry' (cited in the original post) has become increasingly obsolete
    *along with the sexist assumptions that underpin it*. Notwithstanding
    my appreciation of the past, I prefer to look forward to a future when men
    and women can understand and embrace each other as equals--with love.
  5. Standard memberChessPraxis
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    09 Jul '14 23:042 edits
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I don't know how much more I need to add for purposes of clarification.
    I was making an analogy between a 'no true Scotsman' and a 'no true
    gentleman' kinds of argument.

    The original post implies that it's always to a lady's benefit, if not her
    necessity, to associate with a gentleman. (This seems to assume that a
    lady could always readily distin ...[text shortened]... ward to a future when men
    and women can understand and embrace each other as equals--with love.
    Hitler was a Nazi

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    😛 😉 🙂
  6. Zugzwang
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    09 Jul '14 23:15
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    My Grandma had this definition of a Gentleman (and by symmetry a Lady) - someone who is never [b]unintentionally rude.[/b]
    I had a conversation like this with a 'gentleman' who had said or done
    something inappropriate toward me.

    He: Now you are being offensive to me!
    I : I know that. But I'm doing it on purpose, while you have been
    unable so far to control yourself from doing it to me.

    On a broader note, many cultures have quite asymmetrical ways of
    assessing the concept of 'honour' as applied to men and women.
  7. Standard memberChessPraxis
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    10 Jul '14 02:09
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I had a conversation like this with a 'gentleman' who had said or done
    something inappropriate toward me.

    He: Now you are being offensive to me!
    I : I know that. But I'm doing it on purpose, while you have been
    unable so far to control yourself from doing it to me.

    On a broader note, many cultures have quite asymmetrical ways of
    assessing the concept of 'honour' as applied to men and women.
    My opinion, if he did or said something grossly and totally inappropriate, he is no gentleman. 🙂
  8. Zugzwang
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    10 Jul '14 02:34
    Originally posted by ChessPraxis
    My opinion, if he did or said something grossly and totally inappropriate, he is no gentleman. 🙂
    Jean Harris (who was convicted of murdering her lover) wrote a book about
    her experiences in prison: _They Always Call Us Ladies: Stories From Prison_.
    While female prisoners were addressed as 'ladies' rather than as 'girls',
    they otherwise were still routinely treated in degrading, if not brutal, ways.
  9. Standard memberChessPraxis
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    10 Jul '14 04:13
    I know a thing or two about her
    I know she'll only make you cry
    She'll let you walk the street beside her
    But when she wants she'll pass you by

    Everybody says she's lookin' good
    And the lady knows it's understood
    Strutter

    She wears her satins like a lady
    She gets her way just like a child
    You take her home and she says "Maybe, baby"
    She takes you down and drives you wild

    Everybody says she's lookin' good
    And the lady knows it's understood
    Strutter

    I know a thing or two about her
    I know she'll only make you cry
    She'll let you walk the street beside her
    But when she wants, she'll pass you by

    Everybody says she's lookin' good
    And the lady knows it's understood
    Strutter
    Strutter
    Strutter
  10. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    10 Jul '14 04:22
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I don't know how much more I need to add for purposes of clarification.
    I was making an analogy between a 'no true Scotsman' and a 'no true
    gentleman' kind of argument.

    The original post implies that it's always to a lady's benefit, if not her
    necessity, to associate with a gentleman. (This seems to assume that a
    lady could always readily distinguis ...[text shortened]... forward to a future when men
    and women can understand and embrace each other as equals--with love.
    "Well, Gentlemen of Red Hot Pawn, how do we and our sons and grandsons measure up against these "10 Simple Steps to Raising a New Generation of Gentlemen!" from Judi Vankevich in a "selfish and self-centered culture" or are they sexist?"

    So, you would agree with the final phrase of the original post: "in a 'selfish and self-centered culture' or are they sexist"?
  11. Standard memberChessPraxis
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    10 Jul '14 04:26
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    "Well, Gentlemen of Red Hot Pawn, how do we and our sons and grandsons measure up against these "10 Simple Steps to Raising a New Generation of Gentlemen!" from Judi Vankevich in a "selfish and self-centered culture" or are they sexist?"

    So, you would agree with the final phrase of the original post: "in a 'selfish and self-centered culture' or are they sexist"?
    From what I've seen, each successive generation has diminished in chivalry and any decent code of conduct. The Bushido Code, The Code of the West, a thing of the past. Only a few hold out in modern times.
  12. Zugzwang
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    10 Jul '14 18:47
    Originally posted by ChessPraxis to Grampy Bobby
    From what I've seen, each successive generation has diminished in chivalry and any decent code of conduct. The Bushido Code, The Code of the West, a thing of the past. Only a few hold out in modern times.
    "...any decent code of conduct. The Bushido Code..."
    --ChessPraxis

    The code of Bushido did not always prevent the samurai from rape.

    "Rape is recorded throughout samurai history. In _Mutsuwaki_ ...it states:
    '...dozens of beautiful women...sobbed miserably...Every last one of them
    was dragged out and given to the warriors.' When Minamoto Yoshinaka's
    forces entered Kyoto in 1183, one of his samurai...captured some high-ranking
    women and for five or six days 'exposed them to shame'--a euphemism for rape."
    --Stephen Turnbull (_Samurai Women_)

    A young lady was captured by the samurai, who were eager to rape her.
    She promised to submit to their lust if she was permitted to write a letter.
    After finishing it, she took her own life before she could be violated.
    Here's a poem (in a free English translation) that she wrote:

    "For fear lest clouds may dim her light
    Should she but graze this nether sphere
    The young moon poised above the height
    Doth hastily betake to flight."
  13. Standard memberChessPraxis
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    10 Jul '14 19:551 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "...any decent code of conduct. The Bushido Code..."
    --ChessPraxis

    The code of Bushido did not always prevent the samurai from rape.

    "Rape is recorded throughout samurai history. In _Mutsuwaki_ ...it states:
    '...dozens of beautiful women...sobbed miserably...Every last one of them
    was dragged out and given to the warriors.' When Minamoto Yoshi ...[text shortened]... raze this nether sphere
    The young moon poised above the height
    Doth hastily betake to flight."
    Is there a culture or country or community that doesn't have serious issues?
    I notice you didn't bust on TCOTW. Note my moniker.
    Hope all is well with you.
    Edit: Tips hat
  14. Zugzwang
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    10 Jul '14 21:54
    Originally posted by ChessPraxis
    Is there a culture or country or community that doesn't have serious issues?
    I notice you didn't bust on TCOTW. Note my moniker.
    Hope all is well with you.
    Edit: Tips hat
    I was not singling out Japanese warrior culture (Bushido) for condemnation.
    I was simply pointing out that Bushido was not always as 'decent' as you
    (ChessPraxis) might have assumed. And, given that this thread's original
    post was largely about how 'gentlemen' are supposed to treat 'ladies', I cited
    some examples of how women were mistreated by followers of Bushido.

    For whatever it's worth, modern Japan has a much lower reported incidence
    than most, if not all, Western societies of violent crimes against women.
    Indeed, some Western women who lived in Japan have said they had to
    relearn safety precautions once they returned to their lives in Western societies.
  15. Standard memberChessPraxis
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    10 Jul '14 22:05
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I was not singling out Japanese warrior culture (Bushido) for condemnation.
    I was simply pointing out that Bushido was not always as 'decent' as you
    (ChessPraxis) might have assumed. And, given that this thread's original
    post was largely about how 'gentlemen' are supposed to treat 'ladies', I cited
    some examples of how women were mistreated by follow ...[text shortened]... they had to
    relearn safety precautions once they returned to their lives in Western societies.
    Thanks for clarifying your point. Women and children are mistreated worldwide, it's tragic. Not only that, cruelty seems epidemic, and from reading history, that hasn't changed, might have improved. 🙂
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