Happy 4th of July

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Became aware of Snopes' linkage of the quotation to "the last presidential election" [not my reference] and dismissal of its authorship a week ago when I checked out the quotation [first heard twenty years ago] before posting it to Facebook.

"Claim: Law professor's analysis demonstrates that the results of the last presidential election correspond ...[text shortened]... downfall of democracy." http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp#kyuQEvUH7AIkB7PV.99

If you knew it was phony, why did you post it again today?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Became aware of Snopes' linkage of the quotation to "the last presidential election" [not my reference] and dismissal of its authorship a week ago when I checked out the quotation [first heard twenty years ago] before posting it to Facebook.

"Claim: Law professor's analysis demonstrates that the results of the last presidential election correspond ...[text shortened]... downfall of democracy." http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp#kyuQEvUH7AIkB7PV.99

what about this grievance, cited from the deceleration of Independence?

He (George III) has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

Is this really true? Were native Americans merciless savages as is alleged? whose only known mode of warfare was an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions? Is that really what we are being asked to believe here? Who really was known for an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions, the Natives of Sand Creek?

or this one,

He (George III) has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States?

Did the British government really endeavor to prevent the population of the states or was it simply that they were unwilling to let the colonists appropriate all the land that they wanted at the expense of Native peoples which eventually happened anyway, at the treaty of Paris, 1783? hmmm

Originally posted by HandyAndy
If you knew it was phony, why did you post it again today?

"Became aware of Snopes' linkage of the quotation to "the last presidential election" [not my reference] and dismissal of its authorship a week ago when I checked out the quotation [first heard twenty years ago] before posting it to Facebook."

"Claim: Law professor's analysis demonstrates that the results of the last presidential election correspond to a prediction about the downfall of democracy."

http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp#kyuQEvUH7AIkB7PV.99

"phony" is your word. Snopes' linkage to "the last presidential election" in no way invalidates the principle of gradual decline.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what about this grievance, cited from the deceleration of Independence?

He (George III) has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

Is this really tr ...[text shortened]... e expense of Native peoples which eventually happened anyway, at the treaty of Paris, 1783? hmmm

Hi, robbie. These provocative questions would surely make an interesting thread for the history buffs in the Debates Forum.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Hi, robbie. These provocative questions would surely make an interesting thread for the history buffs in the Debates Forum.

Ouch sussed again! I thought i could get a rise out of that wily o'l trout Handy Andy, but you sussed me out 😀

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Ouch sussed again! I thought i could get a rise out of that wily o'l trout Handy Andy, but you sussed me out 😀

..... but mon frère, the reply was made to Boston Lad on Independence Day, 2014. "sussed" a new one on moi.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
..... but mon frère, the reply was made to Boston Lad on Independence Day, 2014. "sussed" a new one on moi.

Yes it was, but Handy Andy was in the vicinity as was Suzzianne! 'sussed', is rather excellent colloquial term for uncovering something by deduction.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what about this grievance, cited from the deceleration of Independence?

He (George III) has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

Is this really tr ...[text shortened]... e expense of Native peoples which eventually happened anyway, at the treaty of Paris, 1783? hmmm

Is this really true? Were native Americans merciless savages as is alleged?

No. There were casinos owned and run by native American entrepreneurs all throughout this land, from sea to shining sea. Unless you meant merciless and savage businessmen, then yes... yes they were.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Became aware of Snopes' linkage of the quotation to "the last presidential election" [not my reference] and dismissal of its authorship a week ago when I checked out the quotation [first heard twenty years ago] before posting it to Facebook."

"Claim: Law professor's analysis demonstrates that the results of the last presidential election correspond ...[text shortened]... kage to "the last presidential election" in no way invalidates the principle of gradual decline.

Spend a little more time researching Snopes. The fatal sequence, or "gradual decline," has no
reliable source. It is far from being a valid "principle" of democratic government, and no more
than some unknown dabbler's half-baked opinion.

http://www.lorencollins.net/tytler.html

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what about this grievance, cited from the deceleration of Independence?
snip: , the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

Is this really true? Were native Americans merciless savages as is alleged? whose only known mode of warfare was an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions?

I would answer with the question "Who wasn't in 1776? Were the Brits and the Dutch kind and gentle with the South African peoples? In India, Central, or South America? Did the French bake people lovely desserts when they showed up in their countries? The only difference between what the indigenous peoples did in the Western Hemisphere and the so-called civilized folk did was that the indigenous people were protecting themselves from invaders, not the invaders themselves. That said, they may have taken their share of "wives" and slaves, just as others did in times of war.

A bit of hyperbole goes a long way when you're declaring your independence. It would hardly get support to say "Those people won't let us destroy them and it's all your fault, you meanies." Similarly, apparently England tried to put forth all sorts of taxation-WITH-representation plans but the colonists weren't interested because they weren't looking for any sort of solution, just independence.

"Pete Seeger, Judy Collins, Arlo Guthrie & Fred Hellerman - This Land is your Land..."

YouTube

How I do love this rendition; and miss Pete Seeger: Rest In Peace.

Thanks, again, Ponderable. How thoughtful of you to initiate
a "Happy 4th of July" thread on this forum. -Bob

Originally posted by Sahuaro
I would answer with the question "Who wasn't in 1776? Were the Brits and the Dutch kind and gentle with the South African peoples? In India, Central, or South America? Did the French bake people lovely desserts when they showed up in their countries? The only difference between what the indigenous peoples did in the Western Hemisphere and the so-c ...[text shortened]... sts weren't interested because they weren't looking for any sort of solution, just independence.

Insightful. Thanks.

Originally posted by Sahuaro
I would answer with the question "Who wasn't in 1776? Were the Brits and the Dutch kind and gentle with the South African peoples? In India, Central, or South America? Did the French bake people lovely desserts when they showed up in their countries? The only difference between what the indigenous peoples did in the Western Hemisphere and the so-c ...[text shortened]... sts weren't interested because they weren't looking for any sort of solution, just independence.

Aye lass, but the entire mantra 'no taxation without representation', itself was fraudulent because who really got representation after independence? Only if you were propertied, that left out women, native Americans, African Americans and most common men.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess of the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fi ...[text shortened]... but no book has been found."

http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote_blog/Alex.Tytler.Quote.4272

It's not just that no book has been found. I immediately found two sources (there are more) who declare that (a) two quotes from different people were combined into one quote, and (b) Sir Alex Fraser Tytler didn't write either one. They are attributed to a number of other people.

Since the governmental models we have today were fledgling when this guy was alive, he's hardly in any position to declare what the future of such a system would be two hundred years later. And he didn't. True, someone at some point said those words. That doesn't make them true. I can declare that it is inevitable that EVENTUALLY my dear Chicago Cubs will not only GO to the World Series (aside from sitting in the bleachers with the other fans), but they will actually WIN. Yes. Win the World Series. The Cubs. It will happen, and the Yankees will sink lower than ever in history. Maybe. It's easy to claim something with no time frame, and if it doesn't happen in my lifetime just claim that it hasn't happened yet but it still will.

If this is something you personally believe is going to happen, then state that, and state your evidence. Quoting dead people's opinions isn't evidence of anything. Where have you seen this cycle happen in a civilization? Why do you believe it is inevitable?

Originally posted by HandyAndy
Spend a little more time researching Snopes. The fatal sequence, or "gradual decline," has no
reliable source. It is far from being a valid "principle" of democratic government, and no more
than some unknown dabbler's half-baked opinion.

http://www.lorencollins.net/tytler.html

"Seven Signs of A Falling Nation"

http://realtruth.org/articles/070831-002-ssoafn.html

"Societal Collapse"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_collapse

"History of Europe"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Europe

Thanks for your opinion.