Happy 4th of July

Originally posted by HandyAndy
I think you should move to Mexico, just to be on the safe side.

You go first, and send us a postcard to tell us just how safe it is there.

I wasn't talking about no governing body, if that's what you were thinking... but it's a little hard to know what your point is when you only toss out a line like "I think you should move to Mexico". I wasn't saying no government is better than an existing government, but apparently what I did say was too difficult to understand. Sad really, because I made it a point to be clear and not too wordy.

By the way, a no governing body type of government is pretty much what is happening in Mexico right now. The gangs and drug dealers are calling the shots, which is why we've seen an increase in the number of children crossing the border.

Originally posted by HandyAndy
I note that your chief source, Real Truth magazine, is sponsored by The Restored Church of God.

Any legitimate historians in that crowd? I didn't think so.

The same observations (without the religious overtones) have been made by other historians. The rise and fall of nations and the pattern followed by those nations bear an uncanny resemblance to one another. Don't let your prejudice against religion stop you from recognizing a truth just because it's formatted through and presented by a religious organization.

But you're old enough to have made up your own mind, and then not allow any other thoughts to enter in. You've got enough to think about, like setting off fireworks or drinking beer and eating hot dogs. You've already got your work cut out for you, so don't let your mind become muddled down in... independent rational thought.

Originally posted by lemon lime
Oh come on... you can't be that naive. Do you believe women, native Americans, African Americans and most common men could have immediately had those rights overnight? A new form of governing was instituted that in relatively short course allowed these rights to become available to everyone. I doubt many of the framers of our constitution foresaw some of ...[text shortened]...


Okay, that's my 4th of July speech... now let's all get back to our usual monkey business.

Its nothing to do with my naivety and I shall let this logical fallacy pass this time, the claim no tax without representation was fraudulent, what they should have said was, 'No tax without representation unless you're a propertied male European and not riff raff, or a woman, or a slave or a native American'. In fact it appears to me that little has changed and there is great doubt in my mind whether America really is a democracy or is more likely an oligarchy, as it was when the deceleration of independence was signed.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Its nothing to do with my naivety and I shall let this logical fallacy pass this time, the claim no tax without representation was fraudulent, what they should have said was, 'No tax without representation unless you're a propertied male European and not riff raff, or a woman, or a slave or a native American'. In fact it appears to me that little ha ...[text shortened]... racy or is more likely an oligarchy, as it was when the deceleration of independence was signed.

I freed all of my slaves in 1982, and got them all jobs at the local buggy whip factory.

The native Americans here are always complaining about how things used to be... they long for the days when they lived in tents, and didn't have indoor plumbing and electric water heaters, or TV or cars/trucks or video poker or etc etc etc.

I'm not sure if women have the right to vote now or not... I haven't listened to the news for a few days.

Originally posted by lemon lime
I freed all of my slaves in 1982, and got them all jobs at the local buggy whip factory.

The native Americans here are always complaining about how things used to be... they long for the days when they lived in tents, and didn't have indoor plumbing and electric water heaters, or TV or cars/trucks or video poker or etc etc etc.

I'm not sure if women have the right to vote now or not... I haven't listened to the news for a few days.

LOL, dude there will be a woman in the white house in 2016 and she wont just be part of the decor, she will be running the country! Hopefully that'll sort you out.

As for slavery, the American penal system is simply a continuation of slavery.

I think I would also complain if I had my entire way of living destroyed.

Originally posted by lemon lime
The same observations (without the religious overtones) have been made by other historians. The rise and fall of nations and the pattern followed by those nations bear an uncanny resemblance to one another. Don't let your prejudice against religion stop you from recognizing a truth just because it's formatted through and presented by a religious organizat ...[text shortened]... cut out for you, so don't let your mind become muddled down in... independent rational thought.

Since you're so much younger than I am, it must be hard for you to find the patience to actually read
before you respond. I'm not aware of any disagreement over the fact that civilizations and empires
rise and fall; my dispute with Bobby was prompted by his targeting of democracy for special reproof.

Discussing the incongruity of religion and rational thought is best saved for another day.

By the way, the unaccompanied children crossing the border are mostly from Central America, not Mexico.

Originally posted by HandyAndy
Since you're so much younger than I am, it must be hard for you to find the patience to actually read
before you respond. I'm not aware of any disagreement over the fact that civilizations and empires
rise and fall; my dispute with Bobby was prompted by his targeting of democracy for special reproof.

Discussing the incongruity of relig ...[text shortened]... way, the unaccompanied children crossing the border are mostly from Central America, not Mexico.

Wow you sound quite brainy Randolf, respect! gotta respect that man!

Originally posted by HandyAndy
Since you're so much younger than I am, it must be hard for you to find the patience to actually read
before you respond. I'm not aware of any disagreement over the fact that civilizations and empires
rise and fall; my dispute with Bobby was prompted by his targeting of democracy for special reproof.

Discussing the incongruity of relig ...[text shortened]... way, the unaccompanied children crossing the border are mostly from Central America, not Mexico.

LOL Yeah, I'm so much younger than you are. So now we're deporting people back to south of the southern Mexican border, are we? Like where for instance?

Liberal redneck "My country right or wrong leave if you don't like it" patriotism must be an east coast thing. Here on the left coast you would be immediately pegged for a racist right wing tea party Republican woman hating extremist before you could say anything else to let your comrades know you are on their side. Over here knee jerk reactions to anything that doesn't line up with what liberals believe can kick in even faster than your own.


...it must be hard for you to find the patience to actually read
before you respond.

If you want me to do more than simply scan your messages before responding then maybe you could actually read before responding too. Do unto others what you want done unto you.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
LOL, dude there will be a woman in the white house in 2016 and she wont just be part of the decor, she will be running the country! Hopefully that'll sort you out.

As for slavery, the American penal system is simply a continuation of slavery.

I think I would also complain if I had my entire way of living destroyed.

I think I would also complain if I had my entire way of living destroyed.

You do realize all of that was tongue in cheek, right? If you wanted to pi$$ off some real native Americans you would come here and offer your support to them personally. But I wouldn't advise you to do this, because they don't enjoy being treated like children or talked down to anymore than you or I would. And by the way, the "native Americans" I know don't call themselves native Americans... they call themselves Indians. I don't know about you, but I sure as heck am not going to correct them and tell them what they should be called.

Originally posted by HandyAndy
Thanks for the tip about reading thoughtfully, Bobby. It makes so much difference. By the way,
I can't find any reference to the fatal sequence being a principle of democratic government, even
remotely. Where did you find it? At least give me a chapter heading or some other signpost.

I can't find any reference to the fatal sequence being a principle of democratic government

Instead of trying to change what Bobby is saying why can't you just read it? No one is talking specifically about a principle of democratic government. Bobby is talking about a specific pattern dictated by human nature.

Understanding rules of grammar and spelling proficiency is just the starting point... how old do you think you need to be before comprehending what you read?

The Tytler Cycle Revisited by John Eberhard 03/14/09

"In 2003 I became very interested in a theory developed by Scottish historian Alexander Tytler, and wrote an article on it at the time, which ironically enough is now getting a lot of attention due to being linked to from Wikipedia.

Tytler’s theory set forth a cycle that every democracy goes through, which goes like this. Tytler said the cycle starts out with a society in bondage. Then it goes in this sequence:

Bondage
Spiritual Faith
Courage
Liberty
Abundance
Selfishness
Complacency
Apathy
Dependence
Then starting over with Bondage

Tytler organized these items in a circle: [see site image] I was fascinated with this because to me it seemed to explain what we are going through as a country right now, where people are more interested in how they can somehow soak the system to get their free ride, than building anything. Clearly we are on the left side of this cycle, somewhere in the selfishness, complacency, apathy or dependence side.

Recently I found an article entitled “An American Tragedy” dated 12/16/08 by James Quinn, a financial writer and senior director of strategic planning for a major university. Most of the article is about disgraced investment guru Bernie Madoff, but a good chunk of it concerns the Tytler cycle and exactly where Quinn thinks we are in the cycle. Here's what Quinn has to say:

“The following quote attributed to Scottish history professor Alexander Tyler in 1787, seems to portray an accurate reflection of what has occurred during our 200+ years of existence as a democracy.

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

“The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

•From bondage to spiritual faith;
•From spiritual faith to great courage;
•From courage to liberty;
•From liberty to abundance;
•From abundance to complacency;
•From complacency to apathy;
•From apathy to dependence;
•From dependence back into bondage

“These words were written two years before George Washington became our first President. There is so much truth in these words it makes me shudder, especially since we are clearly in stage 7. An honest appraisal of our country’s downward spiral is necessary to begin the process of redemption. We have continually voted ourselves increased benefits, dependent upon the printing presses of the Federal Reserve to sustain our country’s ponzi scheme. We have pawned our future and the bill will eventually come due.

“The GreatAmericanRepublic

“My assessment of the chronological sequence our democracy has progressed through, follows.

“From bondage to spiritual faith (1760 to 1769)

•King George III becomes King of England
•Currency Act, Sugar Act, Stamp Act, Quartering Act, Townshend Act passed by Parliament
•Sons of Liberty formed by John Adams, Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, John Hancock, Patrick Henry, among others.

“From spiritual faith to great courage (1770 to 1783)

•Boston massacre
•Samuel Adams organizes the Committees of Correspondence
•Parliament passes the Tea Act
•Boston Tea Party
•The First Continental Congress
•Battle of Bunker Hill
•Thomas Paine publishes Common Sense
•Revolutionary War rages for six years
•British surrender at Yorktown
•Treaty of Paris ends Revolutionary War

“From courage to liberty (1784 to 1865)

•Constitutional Convention
•Constitution ratified by 13 states
•George Washington elected President
•Bill of Rights passed
•Fugitive Slave Act passed
•Louisiana Purchase
•Robert Fulton invents steamboat
•War of 1812
•Monroe Doctrine
•President Andrew Jackson battles bankers which leads to the Panic of 1837
•U.S. Mexican War
•California gold rush
•Compromise of 1850
•Dred Scott Decision
•Abraham Lincoln elected President
•Confederate states secede from the Union
•Emancipation Proclamation
•Civil War rages for four years
•Union is restored
•13th Amendment abolishes slavery

“From liberty to abundance (1866 to 1969)

•Civil Rights Act of 1866
•First Trans-Continental Railroad
•Alexander Graham Bell invents the telephone
•Industrial Revolution
•General Electric founded
•Spanish American War
•U.S. Steel founded
•Airplane invented
•Automobile invented
•Federal Reserve created
•World War I
•Great Depression
•New Deal programs implemented by FDR
•Golden Gate Bridge completed
•World War II
•Holocaust
•Atomic bomb used to end war with Japan
•Marshall Plan rebuilds Europe & Japan
•US emerges from the war as the only great economic power
•Cold War
•Korean War
•Interstate highway system built
•Civil Rights Movement
•John F. Kennedy assassinated
•Vietnam War
•Great Society programs implemented
•Civil Rights Act of 1964
•Martin Luther King assassinated
•Neil Armstrong walks on the moon

“From abundance to complacency (1970 to 1989)

•Roe vs Wade
•President Nixon resigns in disgrace
•Oil embargo
•Ronald Reagan elected President
•Military buildup and tax cuts
•Fall of the Soviet Union

“From complacency to apathy (1990 to 2000)

•Gulf War
•Bill Clinton elected President
•Stock market boom
•Gridlock between Congress & President leads to budget surpluses
•President Clinton acquitted in impeachment trial

“From apathy to dependence (2001 to 2007)

•George W. Bush elected President
•Nasdaq stock bubble bursts
•9/11 attack
•Alan Greenspan lowers rates to 1%
•Invasion of Afghanistan
•Department of Homeland security created
•Invasion of Iraq
•Hurricane Katrina
•Home prices double
•Financial derivatives grow to over $100 trillion

“From dependence back into bondage (2008 to ????)

•Housing prices collapse
•Financial firms collapse
•Government and Federal Reserve intervene to prop up the worldwide financial system
•Government bailouts of financial firms and auto manufacturers
•Federal Reserve & U.S. Treasury commit over $8 trillion of taxpayer funds
•Barrack Obama elected President
•Immediate borrowing & stimulus packages exceeding $1 trillion are discussed
•Federal Reserve lowers rates to below 1%”

===============================

I tend to believe the above is pretty accurate, because we can see right now that the US government under Obama-Reid-Pelosi is making an unprecedented power grab, by increasing spending dramatically, and increasing their socialistic hold over American life. The current Democratic Party leadership is the most radically leftist/socialist we have ever had. One of their recent actions was to basically repeal the welfare reform which was enacted in the 1990s, and which was so successful too. Obama’s new budget document blatantly outlines his goals to punish high producers because they have broken the rules, which is as Marxist a plan as I have ever seen.

The question I have had for some time is whether this will continue through the entire cycle of Bondage, Spiritual Faith, Courage, Liberty, Abundance, Selfishness, Complacency, Apathy, Dependence, then starting over with Bondage; or whether concerned and knowledgeable individuals can somehow halt the decline and keep us from going into a new period of bondage?

Clearly we see the American public being apathetic and willing to allow the US government to take over more and more of our lives, and thus becoming more and more dependent. And yet, at the same time, I see outrage and a building frustration by a large segment of the population, with protest events (the recent spate of Tea Party events), petitions, and a plethora of columns in the conservative press, decrying the power grab. Will it be enough? Can we prevent a new period of bondage?" [2] http://www.commonsensegovernment.com/article-09-15-03.html

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]The Tytler Cycle Revisited by John Eberhard 03/14/09

"In 2003 I became very interested in a theory developed by Scottish historian Alexander Tytler, and wrote an article on it at the time, which ironically enough is now getting a lot of attention due to being linked to from Wikipedia.

Tytler’s theory set forth a cycle that every democracy ...[text shortened]... prevent a new period of bondage?" [2] http://www.commonsensegovernment.com/article-09-15-03.html[/b]

Who is John Eberhard? This piece is based on the questionable "Tytler" quotes already discredited
by Snopes, Loren Collins and others. It looks more like a Tea Party screed than accurate history.

But thanks for letting the other shoe drop.

Originally posted by HandyAndy
Who is John Eberhard? This piece is based on the questionable "Tytler" quotes already discredited
by Snopes, Loren Collins and others. It looks more like a Tea Party screed than accurate history.

But thanks for letting the other shoe drop.

John Eberhard Bio "John Eberhard is a marketing consultant, author, and political analyst living in the Los Angeles area. Over the last 30 years John has closely watched the political trends and activities on the state and national level. John has been engaged in education of the public on political issues, with a web site CommonSenseGovernment.com, an email newsletter, and a blog Common Sense Government Blog, for the past five years. During that time he has written extensively about the failings of liberalism and socialism, the extreme liberal bias of the mainstream news media, the professors in higher education, and celebrities in Hollywood, and the effects of the culture wars, among other topics.

After being raised in a liberal home, and voting for Jimmy Carter in 1980, John’s political philosophy began leaning decidedly toward the right. “I began to see how liberalism was first of all penalizing the people who worked and produced in our society by taking money away from them and then redistributing it to others who didn’t work. But it also occurred to me that liberalism was not really helping the recipients of this income redistribution either. The concept of ‘liberal compassion’ is a complete hoax, because when you give someone these free benefits, you rob him of any incentive to work or get educated for a job or career, which are the very things he needs to do to get ahead and be independent, and you make that person dependent on the state. I decided I had to take an active role in spreading the conservative philosophy,” stated Eberhard.

John has worked for 25 years in the Marketing/Market research/Advertising/PR field for a variety of companies and clients, including software, insurance, real estate, business consulting, and publishing. He founded and is President of Real Web Marketing Inc., a company servicing clients across he U.S.

CommonSenseGovernment.com was founded in September, 2003. John’s political articles have been published on IntellectualConservative.com and other sites" http://commonsensegovernmentviews.com/john-eberhard-bio/

Please remember the overall focus this 4th of July, 2014, is the entire 238 years not the past 6 of the current presidency.

Originally posted by lemon lime
LOL Yeah, I'm so much younger than you are. So now we're deporting people back to south of the southern Mexican border, are we? Like where for instance?

Let's try this one last time. You said children were crossing the border (to the U.S.) because of Mexican
gangs and drug dealers. The children are mostly from Central America (e.g., Guatemala, Honduras,
Nicaragua). They have journeyed from their homes and through Mexico northward to the U.S. border.