Originally posted by no1marauderThis made me wonder - - - What if a cheater was using an engine but 90% of the time chose the 2nd best move? What would their rating wind up at? Would they still be pretty good? How would we detect that?
From my 640 games, opponents percentage matches at different levels on this site (book opening moves not included):
-1200 31%
1201-1300 33%
1301-1400 39%
1401-1500 42%
1501-1600 48%
1601-1700 51%
1701-1800 61%
1801-1900 63%
1901-2000 69%
...[text shortened]... ble evidence and the considered judgments of "experts". Other sites do it routinely.
Another hypothetical; how big a ratings boost would a player get if they were to consult their engine only several times per game, in "crucial" positions? A few hundred points maybe? How could this ever be detected?
Originally posted by no1marauderI think shivi's concerns are bleeding over from politics into a chess site . There's a huge diference between perceived global witch hunts for terrorists cells and busting blatant cheats occasionally on a chess web site . That said , I think the mods could bring the accusations forward to the person in question and get feedback before any draconian action is taken . For example , let's say Joe123 is accused , and has a rating of 2400 . He matches up with fritz 80+% . This is brought to him by the cheat police/mods . He shows them tournament wins (live , not online tournies) , his BCF rating , and examples of documented games he's played in (live) also matched up about the same % with fritz ; then he's clean and no one can impune his character again because he's proven he's just flat-out a master . A cheat will not be able to come up with any supporting evidence and answer his accusers .
I cannot say it is impossible that a "miscarriage of justice" will occur, but I would guess it's highly unlikely. I proposed a number of safeguards many months ago including that the "accused" be presented with the evidence against them and be allowed to defend themselves. I also proposed that they have a chance to admit guilt and receive s ...[text shortened]... ng but you can catch the more obvious cheats and try to deter others. I'd be content with that.
Now some are going to scream this is unreasonable , but we've all agreed in subscibing to the site to abide by TOS . This isn't like a random car search by overzealous police . Nobody stuck a hot poker up anyone's arse and made them sign the TOS against their will . And to me , when I read it and agreed to it as a condition to membership , I though it was implied that there might be scrutiny into my follow through in abiding to those conditions . If I can't tollerate such natural consiquences of signing on to the site and it's TOS , then I should get off it . But I feel I have no right to cry foul if my PM's are examined , my forum posts , or my conduct on the board by those who OWN and run this site .
Originally posted by bbarrWell, you are a fool bbarr (and I'm removing you from my buddy list).
Normally a smear campaign consists at least partly of lies. As far as I can tell, no1marauder only reported on and criticized your behavior concerning a known cheater. If damage to the site was done by your not being elected a game mod, you have only yourself to blame.
😛
I just wanted to ask: Why are there so many people saying that rating doesn't matter?
Personally, I think it is important. Not because I'd get a kick out of using an engine to boost my rating up to 2000, but because it shows how much I've improved. When I joined this site, my rating was around 900. Now, 350 games later, it's around 1100. I find it motivating that less than a year after I started playing chess, my rating has increased by 200 points and I can beat people who would have totally smashed me 9 months ago.
People who use an engine are definately ego-maniacs and are likely not to have much of a social life, but contrary to what lots of people are saying-rating is important. At least to me it is. Not because I care what people think about my chess abilities (I know I suck when compared to someone rated 1400 or higher), but because it lets me monitor my progress. Chess would be less fun for me if I didn't know whether I'm improving or not.
I'm guessing that the main problem is not that the cheat police is being overloaded, but their inability of discern occassional cheaters. This is the kind of cheater that effects 99% of the people on this site. In fact, I believe that there's no one on this site who picks the best move from an engine every time, or "full-time cheaters". If they did, they'd easily be detected by the cheat police, and their rating would probably be above ironman's until they were booted.
So the only criminals we're looking for are the kind that are unprosecutable, and no1 wants to increase the number of sheriff's in town. Doesn't sound logical to me. Yes, there's always going to be a slow immigration of new "full-time cheaters" to this site. But this can be handled by our current game mods. And if I'm wrong, and that's not the case, then we'll give them more people. But that won't solve address the complaints of most in this thread. Most people are talking about the impossible to catch, occassional cheats.
Originally posted by ark13I doubt that there are a lot of people who will use and engine for like... only every 3rd move in a game. If I cheated (not giving thought to the game mods) I'd let an engine play in the critical games (eg clan challenges, tourneys etc), and lower my rating by playing all other games without.
I'm guessing that the main problem is not that the cheat police is being overloaded, but their inability of discern occassional cheaters. This is the kind of cheater that effects 99% of the people on this site. In fact, I believe that there's no one on this site who picks the best move from an engine every time, or "full-time cheaters". If they did, the ...[text shortened]... in this thread. Most people are talking about the impossible to catch, occassional cheats.
And those people are not impossible to catch. A *certain* 13-year old got caught because of one game. I'm not saying that other cheats are stupid enough to call out someone, publically challenge someone to a game, keep commenting the progress... and cheating that game, but it shows it is not impossibl, you just need one game to start you off.
Who'd go into the effort of using an engine every couple of moves? Chances are you'd screw it up behind redemption because you can't see how the engine was thinking ahead.
Originally posted by ark13If I started cheating, at first it would only be for the occasional move that I thought was important. Then I'd gradually realize that there lots of important moves. Then I'd realize they were ALL important, and before you know it...
I'm guessing that the main problem is not that the cheat police is being overloaded, but their inability of discern occassional cheaters. This is the kind of cheater that effects 99% of the people on this site. In fact, I believe that there's no one on this site who picks the best move from an engine every time, or "full-time cheaters". If they did, the ...[text shortened]... in this thread. Most people are talking about the impossible to catch, occassional cheats.
The kind of person who needs to win that badly, is going to make sure the cheating is worth it.
Originally posted by no1marauderHow'd I do? I was down around 15%, right? 😉
From my 640 games, opponents percentage matches at different levels on this site (book opening moves not included):
-1200 31%
1201-1300 33%
1301-1400 39%
1401-1500 42%
1501-1600 48%
1601-1700 51%
1701-1800 61%
1801-1900 63%
1901-2000 69%
...[text shortened]... ble evidence and the considered judgments of "experts". Other sites do it routinely.
