Originally posted by dfm65There was a fair vote with lots of threads talking about it.
i disagree. i think a voter turnout of 2-3% clearly indicates the vote was unknown to a great many constituents. Some people just come here to play chess. They don't visit the forums. It's not a reason to take away their opportunity to vote on an issue that concerns them. We need a fair vote.
If people doesn't watch forums or doesn't care about the cheating issue it doesn't mean that nothing should be done.
Russ just can't Pm 120000 users to let'em know that there's a vote in act.
Originally posted by RavelloIt doesn't matter how many threads there were if most people don't visit the forums.
There was a fair vote with lots of threads talking about it.
If people doesn't watch forums or doesn't care about the cheating issue it doesn't mean that nothing should be done.
Russ just can't Pm 120000 users to let'em know that there's a vote in act.
If people don't care about the cheating issue then it DOES mean nothing should be done. Why should this rather big brother-like system be imposed on people if they don't care about catching the occasional cheat? people who lose games and suspect their opponents used an engine should just have a good cry and resolve not to play that person again, rather than drag everyone through this whole stupid issue.
I'm sure someone of Russ's wizard-like programming ability could automate a PM to everyone in about 15 minutes.
Originally posted by Ravello
There was a fair vote with lots of threads talking about it.
If people doesn't watch forums or doesn't care about the cheating issue it doesn't mean that nothing should be done.
Russ just can't Pm 120000 users to let'em know that there's a vote in act.
But he (Russ) can force we to step into the voting page before we can access (sp?) our games.
This isn't my case cos I couldn't vote anyway. I'm not a pawn star. But I was obligued to confirm that I am 13 yo + to continue to be accepted in this site.
Originally posted by dfm65TOS 3 (b): You will not use chess engines, chess software, chess computers or consult any third party to assist you in any game.
It doesn't matter how many threads there were if most people don't visit the forums.
If people don't care about the cheating issue then it DOES mean nothing should be done. Why should this rather big brother-like system be imposed on people if they don't care about catching the occasional cheat? people who lose games and suspect their opponents used an ...[text shortened]... of Russ's wizard-like programming ability could automate a PM to everyone in about 15 minutes.
Is there some reason you think people should be allowed to violate the TOS and no punishment be given?
The idea of having game mods is destined to fail from the beginning. The truth is that any player can play any move, and just because a player has had 100% match with a chess engine (I might add there are different chess engines with different understanding of the game that will suggest different moves) does not mean the player is using chess software assistance. Theoretically it could increase the probability the player is using assitance as far as we know. But that's it.
Personally, I think the best way to "punish", or prevent people who use chess engines from abusing the system, a chess engine user is to have a section on the site where qualified users 9game mods0 can post engine match-up percentages for certain people.
Here is the system I propose: Two people are playing a game. One of the players suspect the other uses a chess engine to analyze her moves. The player who suspects it 9not the game mods; they simply won't have enough time to do thourough analyses0 then runs the game through various chess programs and determines which moves match up to which chess programs. The player then sends the game along with the move numbers that matched up 9specifying which engine it matched up to0. The game mods can then check to see if the moves do, indeed, match up.
As I mentioned earlier, there can be a section on the site to post the percentage of move match-ups 9total and/or for a specific game, how many games and other relevant statistics0 and which moves for which games for users that have been accused of cheating and found to have moves that match up. The game mods would be the only ones who can add to this part of the site. However, if player number one 9the girl who accused her opponent of cheating0 has a relevant comment, she can send it to the game mod and request it to be posted as a comment anyone can view about the "cheater". This way everyone can make an accurate assesment of whether they want to play the "cheater" or not, without banning someone for what could be no reason.
A "cheater" could even have a special icon next to her name. I could think of some other ideas but this post is long enough already imho
Obviously, the ideas mentioned above do not all have to be implimented together or none at all; some can be accepted while others rejected.
Sincerely,
Originally posted by no1marauderThere is no reasonable way to know for sure, that is the problem.
TOS 3 (b): You will not use chess engines, chess software, chess computers or consult any third party to assist you in any game.
Is there some reason you think people should be allowed to violate the TOS and no punishment be given?
And let's say a player does use fritz 8 to decide all her moves. Not only would be of no benefit to the player, but it wouldn't in any way mess up the rating system 9or cause any problems as far as I know0 as long as the player is CONSISTENT which is key.
If an ordinary player decides to use assistance for one of her games when she has not used any for her previous games and if she was a rather low rated player (maybe I don't even have to state that; are there any girls who have a high rating around here?) if she was playing ironmaiden© or kissy© (all rights reserved to Bowmann©😉 for example, they might lose a lot of points which would reflex an inaccuracy because fritz© is a stronger chess player than the girl.
So if someone used fritz© all the way through it would only be as if fritz© played chess on redhotpawn!
edit wow that's really weird, I put a copyright followed by a closed peren and it showed up as a copyright sign and wanker simley face.
Originally posted by bobbob1056thSo to find if someone is a cheater you would analyse the game in progress with an engine yourself? Well done. It's brilliant.
The idea of having game mods is destined to fail from the beginning. The truth is that any player can play any move, and just because a player has had 100% match with a chess engine (I might add there are different chess engines with different understanding of the game that will suggest different moves) does not mean the player is using chess software ...[text shortened]... e implimented together or none at all; some can be accepted while others rejected.
Sincerely,
What if you don't own an engine? What about the fact that you are effectively cheating as well?
Originally posted by Moldy CrowI'm sorry if my point wasn't clear. I wasn't saying that we shouldn't have game mods, as I clearly stated at the bottom of my post. I said I wasn't sure of my opinion. My post was just something for people to consider when making up their own minds on the issue. We have to realise that we're not going to be able to catch the occasional cheaters that effect most of us. The only cheaters we can catch are the ones that use an engine almost 100% of the time. And those cheaters have a high rating, and don't effect lower class players like me.
No offense ark13 , but what you think about having cheat police is not pertinent to this discussion - a vote was taken and as no1 pointed out 90% voted in favor of it . Can we now proceed from there without beating this dead horse once again ?
No1 , what do you think about splitting the cheat police into two seperate entities ? We need hard core exper ...[text shortened]... r evidence to site admin for prosecution .
But I still agree it's more than a two man job .
I think that cheating is an immoral, and stupid practice. There's nothing to be learned, or gained from it except a high rating on one of the hundreds of internet chess sites. But we must be aware that it's a difficult thing to do something about, and the cheats are mostly hurting themselves, rather than others.
Originally posted by XanthosNZImmediately after I read your post I hit 'Reply & Quote' and the nice person I am I was going to give you the complete answers to your questions. But I mean come on, is the answer not obvious enough? I came to the conclusion it's just one of your sarcastic pessimistic smart-ass replies, so this is all you get. Figure out the answer or wait for someone who is willing to explain to you.
So to find if someone is a cheater you would analyse the game in progress with an engine yourself? Well done. It's brilliant.
What if you don't own an engine? What about the fact that you are effectively cheating as well?
Sincerely,
No Offence.
ps check this out Game 1
Originally posted by no1marauderNo, and I haven't asserted that.
TOS 3 (b): You will not use chess engines, chess software, chess computers or consult any third party to assist you in any game.
Is there some reason you think people should be allowed to violate the TOS and no punishment be given?
If someone admits to cheating then fine - banish them, whatever.
I just don't think it matters enough to go to the trouble of detecting the practice - there's something more than faintly ridiculous about the thought of a panel of people spending their no doubt valuable time comparing game moves against a variety of engines WHEN NOTHING IS RIDING ON THE RESULT OF THE INVESTIGATION. Okay, if it was the World Correspondence Championship or something, fine. But SHEESH! This is a place to relax and play chess against people you'll mostly never meet, there's no prize at stake - only that little rating. In short, IT DOESN'T MATTER. Who is being hurt by a few people cheating? The cheaters themselves, mainly. And some people who've lost a few rating points. Big deal. Boo hoo. Spend your time and energy on the real problems of the world.
Game mods make the site less relaxed and fun, simply by virtue of their function. They are detrimental to the spirit of the site - or they would be if we ever heard from them...
EDIT: TBH, i'd forgotten all about them...