1400 beats 2400 IM Ling Fong with KIA.

Hi Paul.

A perfect example of it working. That Nxd5 shot with a Bishop on f4
and the Queen on c7 shot was a trick I often tried to pull when I played it.
Never got to pull it off it in a serious game.
I gave it up after six months or so, it was just not me.

1.e4 v 1.Nf3
If you know the lad is a Sicilian or French player then 1.e4 is best way to get a KIA.
Playing 1.Nf3 and there is no guarentee.
If you meet 1...e5 you can play a Vienna (2.Nc3) and still fianchetto your KB
if that is your baby.
i

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi Paul.

A perfect example of it working. That Nxd5 shot with a Bishop on f4
and the Queen on c7 shot was a trick I often tried to pull when I played it.
Never got to pull it off it in a serious game.
I gave it up after six months or so, it was just not me.

1.e4 v 1.Nf3
If you know the lad is a Sicilian or French player then 1.e4 is best way t ...[text shortened]... meet 1...e5 you can play a Vienna (2.Nc3) and still fianchetto your KB
if that is your baby.
i

Well said- that's why the KIA is not really a cure-all for someone looking for the answer to everything.

Typically, 1. e4 KIA players will play the King's Gambit or Vienna, and the 1. Nf3 KIA players will also have Reti, English, and/or Catalan arrows in their quivers.

If I use the 1. g3 move order, I sometimes will play a true Closed Sicilian (queen's knight to c3, king's knight to e2 or f3 only after the f-pawn goes to f4) if black plays a Sicilian structure with ...d6 instead of ...e6 and ...d5, or more recently I have tried the Leningrad Bird.

If black plays ...c5 without ...d5, the Leningrad Bird and the Closed Sicilian mostly transpose because white gets the e4/f4 pawn duo anyway, but with the Leningrad Bird move order, the other guy burns an extra 20-40 minutes on his clock before we get there!

As a side note, in the French the ...Qc7 move was practically refuted in the 1960's, but I see it relatively regularly because it seems logical to those who have never studied the position in detail. I once drew US Life Master Larry Storch when he played ...Qc7 against me- I was a piece up with all my kingside pawns up around his king, and he slapped a perpetual on my exposed king. 🙁 I missed the full point, but it helped me place in a tournament from the middle of the rating pack.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi Savage.

Sorry if I failed to add the words 'reversed' making it clear enough for you
to understand.

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. Bf4 Bg7 4. e3 O-O 5. Bd3 d6

[fen]rnbq1rk1/ppp1ppbp/3p1np1/8/3P1B2/3BPN2/PPP2PPP/RN1QK2R w KQ - 0 6[/fen]
That is a Pirc set up v the London System and that is the exact reverse
of the position Plopzila posted.

Now - he is going for a reverse 150 attack v The Pirc. Last one to blunder losses.}[/pgn]

"Sorry if I failed to add the words 'reversed'... "
Without saying its reversed you would be entirely incorrect. Its not the same position. In the position you give its white to move whereas in the reverse it would be the other side. That one move can make a big difference. That's like calling (1.c4, e5) a sicilian. Its not and usually that extra move will cause the opening to go into different lines than would arise the other way. You would never see a chess writer or strong player refer to a position the way you did.

"A genuine KIA is 1.e4 ..."
Again, you're wrong, it doesn't. We seem to all be in agreement in this thread except for you. Paul, Diophantus and Plopzilla have all said pretty much the exact same thing I've said. The KIA is classified under 1. Nf3.
http://www.chessgames.com/chessecohelp.html

I could give you plenty more links if that's not enough.

"The KID differs from the KIA in as much as Black delays/never plays. ...e5. "
I'm far from an expert in either opening. I've toyed with the idea of playing them but have never actually tried to start learning them much beyond the basics. So, I'll defer to MCO. MCO has black playing e5 by move 6 in every single line in the first 41 columns. Those are the main lines. It also appears black plays e5 in most of the rest. I really have no idea where you're going with that. The difference in the two openigs is that white has an extra move in the KIA which is both good and bad and often leads to different types of positions.

Originally posted by savage4731
You would never see a chess writer or strong player refer to a position the way you did.

[/b]

Really?

Originally posted by savage4731
You would never see a chess writer or strong player refer to a position the way you did.

I can think of one .........................

the problem with 1.e4 in kia is that you have to be prepared to meet 1..e5 and all the crap that goes along with it..

Hi Savage.

I take it running the position through one the many databases did not
produced the required ECO code.

I can see we could end up throwing links at each other to 'prove a point.'
I try not to prefering to keep any debate within ourselves.
(Post as you play - no third party or computer analysis....) 🙂

However you started it:

Your posted link of ECO codes is totally incomplete.

It fails to classify 1.e4 e6 2.d3 or 1.1e4 c5 2.d3 or 1.e4 c6 2.d3.
It does not mention them at all. the KIA for these openings are tucked away
under C00, B20 & B10.

Here is a much more detailed ECO code link.

http://www.ewccf.com/eco.htm

It gives C00 French: King's Indian attack 1.e4 e6, 2.d3

In passing: You said..."That's like calling (1.c4, e5) a sicilian.... that last
site has a variation: A25 English: The Sicilian reversed.

(Don't blame me you are the one who brought classification codes into it.) 😉

Google King Indian Attack - top hit. Wiki of all places. (I have stooped to using WIKI.)

The King's Indian Attack (KIA), also known as the Barcza System.

"Though the KIA is often reached via 1.e4 followed by d3, Nd2, Ngf3, g3, Bg2, and 0-0,
it can also arise from 1. g3, 1. Nf3, or even 1. d3."

Yes (and you brought MCO into this) MCO has it listed under 1.Nf3 but it's such
a diverse opening system you could practically list it anywhere.

The trouble with chess books is buying them is not enough - you have to read them.

So if you look at MCO. (I'm using MCO 11) where they have the KIA listed as
an off-shoot of the Reti Opening.

The note after (b).

"Most other replies tranpose into one of the systems dealt with elsewhere, or
into "closed treatments" of semi-open K'sP games."

A semi-open KP game is the Siciian, French, Caro....
Basically anything but 1...e5 and 1...d5.

Nailing it down in a opening book has always been a hard task as far as classification goes.

Your link gives:

A08 King's Indian Attack 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 c5 3 Bg2 So to you this is the KIA.



Yet after 3 moves in the OP's posted game. This postion arose.


Black c-pawn in the posted game did not go to c5 till move 20.

Still the KIA. Well it must, it began with 1.Nf3. 😕

But it is not listed as an A08 (what's an A08 - openings have names.)
To me, that is a London Reversed and I can call it what I like because your
linked site does not tag it. If you must have a code. Call it X0.

But I can see your point. It all depends on whose book you read/ what DVD you
watch/what site you got to.

You are correct from library and links. I am correct from mine.....I'll offer a draw.
(and if you still think I'm wrong, I'll live with it.)

On the KID and KIA

"I really have no idea where you're going with that."
I mentioned it because the KID starts with 1.Nf6 so therefore people may,
and some do, think the KIA always starts with 1.Nf3.

The same as some people think 1.Nf3 is always Reti. It's not until Black
decides what the opening is.

Read the post: I say; "Black delays/never plays. ...e5."

Which you confirmed:

"MCO has black playing e5 by move 6 in every single line in the first 41 columns."

Playing it on move 6 is delayed. And columns 21 - 25 covering the Four Pawns Attack
certainly do not mention 6.e5 (we must be using different MCO's.)

"Paul, Diophantus and Plopzilla have all said pretty much the exact same
thing I've said."

"Pretty much" and the "exact same thing." Now You are the one not making sense. 😉

And stop picking and choosing. The lad DataFly pretty much agrees with
the exact same thing I said. 🙂

"You would never see a chess writer or strong player refer to a position the way you did. "

Being a strong player and a writer does not always make them right.

Me, I don't class myself really as either. (certainly not the former.)
Looking at openings in reverse has always been a fondness of mine.
Any Black opening trap will work for White you just have to lose that tempo.
If I have let my personal preference seep into a post, then good.

To me. and I cannot be anyone else, that is a reverse opening. Yes the
extra tempo matters. Sometimes that extra tempo can be Zugswang!
You have to look at these things.

Watson (writer & strong player) has touched on this.
Watson hints that in the exchange French White is in zuggers.

"It is actually difficult for White to to even waste a move without effect,
e.g. a3 or h3 will discourage castling on the wing where he has made the advance."

Quotes he in his book 'Play the French.'

I'm sure I mentioned this on another thread and suggested White play
something like Be2 then Bd3 to use the Watson ideas v Black.

Is there not a Fischer article where Black copies White and after a few
moves Fischers claims it is White who is in trouble.
My tired memory cells are struggling here (help!), and was not a response
refuting this then published in Russia?

Strong players and writers. Phooey!

I'd be equally interested to hear what a 1500 player had to say about a position.
They don't come to the board carrying a load baggage.

OK they sometimes have concepts not fully grapsed, double pawns always lose
- Bishops are always better than Knights etc...
But they don't have the baggage.

Good players tend to look at good moves first sometimes missing the better ones.

"Right Mr.Thomas!"

I would like to think of myself as a 1500ish player, so this is my tuppence.

The trouble I have had with the g3, Bg2, Nf3 setup is that it immediately gives the opposition the incentive to attack the kingside to break down the defence. For example, in the second of GP's posted games a sneaky Qd7 suddenly means you have the ways and means of clearing or moving the g2 Bishop, and definitely discouraging the castling that the KIA is designed for.

I quite regularly find myself in trouble in the reverse situation playing the Dragon as black, a Bg5 then Qd2 puts paid to any hope of keeping the King nicely safe and protected.

That said, I know my own failings and they are primarily that I am very weak on a congested board, so the KIA is not suited to me at all. Hence my previous comment about a love for gambits, especially the Danish or half-Danish, as all of the complexity is channeled into one specific purpose (i.e. can I get to the King before I run out of pieces)

there are no boring openings, only boring players. 🙂

HELP! arrived from a totally unexpected and very welcome source.

Thank You.

This is the position Fischer was talking about.

(EDIT - correction- it is not.I leave this for posterity...) see next post by me.

I believe it should really be called the Mahescandra Attack, after the Indian player known only as Mahescandra, who first played it in 1850.

Originally posted by Paul Leggett
I believe it should really be called the Mahescandra Attack, after the Indian player known only as Mahescandra, who first played it in 1850.

[pgn][Event "Kolkata"]
[Site "Kolkata"]
[Date "1850.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Mahescandra"]
[Black "Cochrane, John"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A04"]
[PlyCount "57"]
[EventDate "1850.??.??"]
[EventType "ga ...[text shortened]... 6 Qb1+ 26. Kg2 Qxa2
27. Qxd4+ Kg8 28. Bh6 Re7 29. Qd5+ 1-0[/pgn]

Which is probably why that 1. Nf3 2. g3 3. Bg7 4. O-O sequence is known as the Barcza Attack. Until it turns into something else of course. This naming malarkey is more trouble than it's worth, even the poor old brontosaurus is called something else now!

Sorry about that. My colleague was doing it from memory as well.

On pages 215-216 of the September 1963 Chess Life.

This position from the KIA Reversed V The KID in the Mirror.
ECO code OXO cube and gravy.



Reinhard v Fischer, USA Western Open 1963.

Fischer writes.

"Believe it or not”, Black stands better! Now whatever White does,
Black will vary it and get an asymmetrical position and have the superior
position due to his better pawn structure!"

HA Ha. You KIA drip-sticks are in trouble. You need to lose a tempo somewhere
before reaching here.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Sorry about that. My colleague was doing it from memory as well.

On pages 215-216 of the September 1963 Chess Life.

This position from the KIA Reversed V The KID in the Mirror.
ECO code OXO cube and gravy.

[fen]rnbq1rk1/ppp1ppbp/3p1np1/8/8/3P1NP1/PPP1PPBP/RNBQ1RK1 w - - 0 6[/fen]

Reinhard v Fischer, USA Western Open 1963.

Fischer writes. ...[text shortened]... You KIA drip-sticks are in trouble. You need to lose a tempo somewhere
before reaching here.

Same thing happens after 1. e4 e5 and 1. d4 d5- "Now whatever White does,
Black will vary it and get an asymmetrical position and have the superior
position due to his better pawn structure!". It's good to be black!

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Sorry about that. My colleague was doing it from memory as well.

On pages 215-216 of the September 1963 Chess Life.

This position from the KIA Reversed V The KID in the Mirror.
ECO code OXO cube and gravy.

[fen]rnbq1rk1/ppp1ppbp/3p1np1/8/8/3P1NP1/PPP1PPBP/RNBQ1RK1 w - - 0 6[/fen]

Reinhard v Fischer, USA Western Open 1963.

Fischer writes. ...[text shortened]... You KIA drip-sticks are in trouble. You need to lose a tempo somewhere
before reaching here.

why did not Bobby play ...d5 instead of ...d6, after Nd2 Nc6, e4 and e5! black is better, i think. for example,