1. under your bed
    Joined
    10 Nov '10
    Moves
    22480
    06 Sep '11 19:011 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    why did not Bobby play ...d5 instead of ...d6, after Nd2 Nc6, e4 and e5! black is better, i think. for example,

    [pgn] [Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "?"] [Black "?"] [Result "*"] [PlyCount "14"] 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 g6 3. Bg2 Bg7 4. O-O O-O 5. d3 {A very typical move in the KIA } d5 6. Nbd2 Nc6 {although the masters t ...[text shortened]... Golombeck} 7. e4 e5 {and black has the dream centre of two adjacent pawns}[/pgn]
    white needs to play b3, Bb2 to stop d5 before he can play d3?
  2. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    06 Sep '11 20:36
    Originally posted by plopzilla
    white needs to play b3, Bb2 to stop d5 before he can play d3?
    are you sure white has time for jive like that?
  3. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    06 Sep '11 22:483 edits
    hey wait a minute, white would never ever be able to play b3, black would simply move his knight from f6 and white would need to block the long diagonal with some move like c3, no way, b3 cannot be played!
  4. Joined
    15 Jun '06
    Moves
    16334
    07 Sep '11 04:32
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    why did not Bobby play ...d5 instead of ...d6, after Nd2 Nc6, e4 and e5! black is better, i think. for example,

    [pgn] [Event "?"] [Site "?"] [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "?"] [Black "?"] [Result "*"] [PlyCount "14"] 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 g6 3. Bg2 Bg7 4. O-O O-O 5. d3 {A very typical move in the KIA } d5 6. Nbd2 Nc6 {although the masters t ...[text shortened]... Golombeck} 7. e4 e5 {and black has the dream centre of two adjacent pawns}[/pgn]
    After ...d5 white has c4.
  5. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    07 Sep '11 07:41
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    After ...d5 white has c4.
    what? look my dear friend, the point of departure for white is move 5, he must choose,
    either 5.d3 the KIA proper or transpose to a 5.d4 line, with which he will hardly be able
    to retain any kind of initiative. c4 merely plays into blacks hands, it weakens the
    central dark squares, thank you very much, weakens the long diagonal increasing the
    scope of blacks King Bishop, thank you very much, and the pawn can never be
    retained on c4 for the square is weakened due to whites bishop being place on g2
    rather than the more classical f1-a6 diagonal.
  6. gumtree
    Joined
    13 Jan '10
    Moves
    5151
    07 Sep '11 07:54
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    what? look my dear friend, the point of departure for white is move 5, he must choose,
    either 5.d3 the KIA proper or transpose to a 5.d4 line, with which he will hardly be able
    to retain any kind of initiative. c4 merely plays into blacks hands, it weakens the
    central dark squares, thank you very much, weakens the long diagonal increasing the ...[text shortened]... weakened due to whites bishop being place on g2
    rather than the more classical f1-a6 diagonal.
    I'd play 5. c4, or even 4. c4 as there is no urgent need to castle yet. The pawn arrives on c4 before black chucks a spanner in the works with d5. Now my knight can go to c3 instead of d2, I can play d3 or d4 according to what foolishness black cooks up or just leave the d-pawn at home until I am absolutely certain what I want to do in the centre. Not a KIA but that's the point, you don't have to follow a bad line just because it has a particular name attached.
  7. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    07 Sep '11 08:153 edits
    Originally posted by Diophantus
    I'd play 5. c4, or even 4. c4 as there is no urgent need to castle yet. The pawn arrives on c4 before black chucks a spanner in the works with d5. Now my knight can go to c3 instead of d2, I can play d3 or d4 according to what foolishness black cooks up or just leave the d-pawn at home until I am absolutely certain what I want to do in the centre. Not a K he point, you don't have to follow a bad line just because it has a particular name attached.
    oho! retrograde analysis now that you know our plan! How dithpicable! 😛 c4 simply
    doesn't work, it appears to me to transpose to a kind of reti, we shall simply play d5
    regardless, if you swap the pawns off, we retake and white will have given our bishop
    some scope. It appears to me that the weakness of the white set up is that by
    choosing to develop as he has done, he gives black a free hand to get a grip on the
    central dark squares.
  8. gumtree
    Joined
    13 Jan '10
    Moves
    5151
    07 Sep '11 11:33
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    oho! retrograde analysis now that you know our plan! How dithpicable! 😛 c4 simply
    doesn't work, it appears to me to transpose to a kind of reti, we shall simply play d5
    regardless, if you swap the pawns off, we retake and white will have given our bishop
    some scope. It appears to me that the weakness of the white set up is that by
    choosin ...[text shortened]... develop as he has done, he gives black a free hand to get a grip on the
    central dark squares.
    c4 does work if you happen to like the English or Reti. Anyone playing 1. Nf3 has to like those as otherwise they are going to suffer a lot of pain by insisting that e4 MUST be played. In this position playing c4 before black plays d5 makes sense because white gets to apply pressure to d5 - one of the aims of the English. I'd prefer it if I hadn't been stupid enough to plonk that knight on f3 in the first place though, then the bishop blasts down the diagonal and makes the pressure on d5 more apparent. However, black has the same problem - his knight sitting on f6 blocks his g7 bishop's line of fire. You can have the central dark squares for now, I'll take the light squares.
  9. e4
    Joined
    06 May '08
    Moves
    42492
    07 Sep '11 11:52
    The point Fishcer was making has sailed right over your head.

    Black does not play d5 it is committal - White now has something to do.
    He can play around Black's d5.


    Here White has to think of something and Bobby reckons Black can react
    in a favourable manner. It's the Zugswang the extra tempo carries.

    Of course I have read the article and played over the game. 😏

    You can disagree with him if you want. Many did.
    But don't put moves he never played on the board.

    It's akin to the 'White's game is in its last throes." after 1.e4.

    There is minor dispute as to who actually stated that first.
    As always Edward Winter is on hand to try and clear things up.

    http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/breyer.html
  10. gumtree
    Joined
    13 Jan '10
    Moves
    5151
    07 Sep '11 12:101 edit
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    The point Fishcer was making has sailed right over your head.

    Black does not play d5 it is committal - White now has something to do.
    He can play around Black's d5.

    [fen]rnbq1rk1/ppp1ppbp/3p1np1/8/8/3P1NP1/PPP1PPBP/RNBQ1RK1 w - - 0 6[/fen]
    Here White has to think of something and Bobby reckons Black can react
    in a favourable manner. It's the Zug hand to try and clear things up.

    http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/breyer.html
    I think Robbie is trying to persuade me that I lose because I am white and the sainted Fischer said that white is worse in one position.
  11. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    07 Sep '11 15:073 edits
    Originally posted by Diophantus
    c4 does work if you happen to like the English or Reti. Anyone playing 1. Nf3 has to like those as otherwise they are going to suffer a lot of pain by insisting that e4 MUST be played. In this position playing c4 before black plays d5 makes sense because white gets to apply pressure to d5 - one of the aims of the English. I'd prefer it if I hadn't been st ...[text shortened]... 's line of fire. You can have the central dark squares for now, I'll take the light squares.
    meh, its a pawn move at best, we can play ...d5 regardless. I dont care what Fischer
    said, everyone in the whole world knows the queen pawn belongs on queen four! Plus,
    plus, you are applying these assertions to positions other than the one that was posted
    by the green one.
  12. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    07 Sep '11 15:115 edits
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    The point Fishcer was making has sailed right over your head.

    Black does not play d5 it is committal - White now has something to do.
    He can play around Black's d5.

    [fen]rnbq1rk1/ppp1ppbp/3p1np1/8/8/3P1NP1/PPP1PPBP/RNBQ1RK1 w - - 0 6[/fen]
    Here White has to think of something and Bobby reckons Black can react
    in a favourable manner. It's the Zug hand to try and clear things up.

    http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/breyer.html
    No it did not sail over my head, i just have my own mind and see no reason, no not
    even the reason that Fischer gave to put ones queen pawn on queen three rather than
    queen four where it belongs. I even demonstrated with reference why it was superior,
    you may make reference to that. As for being committal? to put ones pawn on an
    already protected square in the centre is committal? I think not, putting ones pawns
    however on queen or king three is certainly no less committal, just ask any Frenchie!

    But don't put moves he never played on the board?????? ill put moves wherever i like
    Mr. Greenpawn! you may call it an act of vandalism, if you like! Its a sad day when
    one cannot question why such and such a move was played, unless of course you
    have a monopoly on the interpretation of chess positions?
  13. e4
    Joined
    06 May '08
    Moves
    42492
    07 Sep '11 17:441 edit
    Hi Robbie.

    Here.


    Fishcer was saying White was in zuggers.

    You are looking at.


    Which was not what Fishcer was looking at.

    OK go your own way if you want to and look at a completely different position,
    but if 5...d5 is so good why not suggest it for White. 6.d3-d4!

  14. Joined
    15 Jun '06
    Moves
    16334
    07 Sep '11 18:08
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    oho! retrograde analysis now that you know our plan! How dithpicable! 😛 c4 simply
    doesn't work, it appears to me to transpose to a kind of reti, we shall simply play d5
    regardless, if you swap the pawns off, we retake and white will have given our bishop
    some scope. It appears to me that the weakness of the white set up is that by
    choosin ...[text shortened]... develop as he has done, he gives black a free hand to get a grip on the
    central dark squares.
    You should strive to know your opponents plan at all times... if he happens to tell you then your work is that much easier. 😛
  15. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    07 Sep '11 19:302 edits
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Hi Robbie.

    Here.

    [fen]rnbq1rk1/ppp1ppbp/3p1np1/8/8/3P1NP1/PPP1PPBP/RNBQ1RK1 w - - 0 6[/fen]
    Fishcer was saying White was in zuggers.

    You are looking at.

    [fen]rnbq1rk1/ppp1ppbp/5np1/3p4/8/3P1NP1/PPP1PPBP/RNBQ1RK1 w - d6 0 6[/fen]
    Which was not what Fishcer was looking at.

    OK go your own way if you want to and look at a completely differe sition you claim is better even with the correct tempo. It is Black to play. I like it.}[/pgn]
    Not really GP, my question was , Why did Fischer not play an immediate ...d5, which as
    your post indicates was answered by the statement that he felt white was in zuggers,
    which is fair enough. I fully grasped and understood that. My own was not intended
    as a refutation, or vandalism or anything to do with Fischer in reality, merely an
    observation of the position. Why it should be seen in any other light i cannot say.

    For Breyer to assert and Reti to quote that white was in trouble after 1.e4 was highly
    amusing!
Back to Top

Cookies help us deliver our Services. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Learn More.I Agree