Bobby Fischer - Genius and Madman

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
not so fast there my friend, the definition of anti Semite does not depend upon its
etymology, but the significance of its application to a particular ethnicity! therefore
these other evidences that you cite cannot be produced as evidence in favour of the
accusation of hypocrisy which hangs over my head like a piano dangling upon a
string!
...[text shortened]... etymology be ruled as inadmissible in court!

objection sustained!

your witness Mr. PK 😛

Not so fast there Carrobie, you're not getting out of this one. Etymology is the 'study of the history of words, their origins, and how their form and meaning have changed over time.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology

The evolution of anti-semitism fits perfectly well into that description.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Not so fast there Carrobie, you're not getting out of this one. Etymology is the 'study of the history of words, their origins, and how their form and meaning have changed over time.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology

The evolution of anti-semitism fits perfectly well into that description.

yes i do not dispute that my learned friend, however we are concerned with a term
which has its meaning directly from its application to a particular ethnicity, and as
ethnicity in this instance cannot change (you cannot not become a Jew or an Arab) this
takes precedence over its etymological evolution and its adoption in popular culture
(brrr, i get goose bumps when i use that word)

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes i do not dispute that my learned friend, however we are concerned with a term
which has its meaning directly from its application to a particular ethnicity, and as
ethnicity in this instance cannot change (you cannot not become a Jew or an Arab) this
takes precedence over its etymological evolution and its adoption in popular culture
(brrr, i get goose bumps when i use that word)

We could go on all day. Alas, i have other things to do.

The fact remains though, Fischers views on Jews were disgusting. That he is now dead and not spreading his racism is for the best.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
We could go on all day. Alas, i have other things to do.

The fact remains though, Fischers views on Jews were disgusting. That he is now dead and not spreading his racism is for the best.

I am sure Fischer gave as good as he got! Death honours no one. 🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I am sure Fischer gave as good as he got! Death honours no one. 🙂

Try this, go and read all the quotes attributed to Fischer regarding Jews. Instead, replace the word 'Jew' for 'Jehovah's Witness', then tell me how you feel.

We'll try a couple -

They are subhuman. They are the scum of the Earth. When you talk about Jehovah's Witnesses, you're scraping the bottom of the barrel of humanity.

and

They're lying bastards. Jehovah's Witnesses were always lying bastards throughout their history. They're a filthy, dirty, disgusting, vile, criminal people.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Try this, go and read all the quotes attributed to Fischer regarding Jews. Instead, substitute the word 'Jew' for 'Jehovah's Witness', then tell me how you feel.

meh i get it every time i visit spirituality, your this, your that, your morally repugnant,
your not a real Christian, etc etc. One must instead of condemning Fischer try to look
for reasons why he was anti Jewish through his experience with those who were close
to him, for example his mother, his father who abandoned him, the tournament
organisers etc etc and on a more global scale as well, the hypocrisy of the nation of
Israel as persecutors of the Palestinians, his perception of America as a global bully
that has sacrificed countless lives for the sake of greedy commercialism. Of course
condemning all Jews or Americans in the way he did is obviously prejudicial, but
without looking for the reasons one is in danger of becoming prejudicial oneself, for
understanding is paramount.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Try this, go and read all the quotes attributed to Fischer regarding Jews. Instead, replace the word 'Jew' for 'Jehovah's Witness', then tell me how you feel.

We'll try a couple -

They are subhuman. They are the scum of the Earth. When you talk about Jehovah's Witnesses, you're scraping the bottom of the barrel of humanity.

and
ut their history. They're a filthy, dirty, disgusting, vile, criminal people.[/quote]

you want me to trade the vile insults that i have received for being a Witness with those
Fischer issued against the Jews? No one is disputing that they are prejudicial, but we
are interested in understanding why.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
meh i get it every time i visit spirituality, your this, your that, your morally repugnant,
your not a real Christian, etc etc. One must instead of condemning Fischer try to look
for reasons why he was anti Jewish through his experience with those who were close
to him, for example his mother, his father who abandoned him, the tournament
orga ...[text shortened]... the reasons one is in danger of becoming prejudicial oneself, for
understanding is paramount.

I couldn't agree more, we should seek to understand why things happen and why people act as they do. You are after all talking to a 'rabid materialist'. But that in no way excuses or justifies peoples behaviour. His views were unacceptable, vile and disgusting, see the above quotes.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
I couldn't agree more, we should seek to understand why things happen and why people act as they do. You are after all talking to a 'rabid materialist'. But that in no way excuses or justifies peoples behaviour. His views were unacceptable, vile and disgusting, see the above quotes.

ok, lets test it out, Fischer commented on the World trade centre attack stating that
what goes around comes around, in effect stating that America because of its foreign
policy and wanton shedding of innocent blood, both of other nations and its own
soldiers was getting retribution and it was justified. Is this a fact or is it not? Is
America an imperialistic force which has shed the lives of its own sons and daughters
as well as those of countless foreign nationals in the pursuit of purely commercial
reasons and should therefore be accountable to some form of retribution? This is the
way that Fischer saw those events, horrific as they were.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ok, lets test it out, Fischer commented on the World trade centre attack stating that
what goes around comes around, in effect stating that America because of its foreign
policy and wanton shedding of innocent blood, both of other nations and its own
soldiers was getting retribution and it was justified. Is this a fact or is it not? Is
Amer ...[text shortened]... me form of retribution? This is the
way that Fischer saw those events, horrific as they were.

Yes, that's one way of looking at it. 'Chickens coming home to roost' is the phrase i believe. We're talking about his views regarding Jews though Rob. Stay on track please.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Yes, that's one way of looking at it. 'Chickens coming home to roost' is the phrase i believe. We're talking about his views regarding Jews though Rob. Stay on track please.

what is there to say, his experience with those who were close to him was not good, as far as we are aware, but of course to designate all Jews in that way was clearly prejudicial.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what is there to say, his experience with those who were close to him was not good, as far as we are aware, but of course to designate all Jews in that way was clearly prejudicial.

Racist?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Racist?

now its getting technical, are Jews a race? i think of them more like an ethnicity.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
now its getting technical, are Jews a race? i think of them more like an ethnicity.

You know i love it when it gets technical. 🙂

Let's use dictionary.com's definition.

1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.

2 .a population so related.

3. Anthropology .

a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.

b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, especially formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.

c. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.

4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock: the Slavic race.

5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.: the Dutch race.

The Jews fit one of those definitions and mtDNA analysis would back that up.

I watched this programme with a degree of biased nostalgia because the FisherSpassky match ignited my love for the game. When the match happened I was enthralled not just by the chess, but the clash of ideologies and the mind games surrounding the whole event (and my imagination was captured by RJF, his story, his quest, and his brilliant games) and I cheered every move by Fischer both on and off the board. However, what struck me most (nearly forty years on) watching this documentary was the dignity of Spassky, his clear love for the game and his understanding of his place and Fischer's place in the history of the World Chess Championship. Spassky had numerous opportunities to walk away from the event in Iceland, but he persisted in the face of extreme provocation and pressure from both Fischer and the Soviet machine. The documentary was about Bobby, but for me the real story was about Boris and how he just wanted to play.