Originally posted by Mephisto2To the position we could have gotten if we had played Nc3 instead Bxf4.
transpose to what?
I understand that had we played Nc3, we could have played something other than Bxf4 now (Nd5), but I think Bxf4 is stronger than Nd5 and so in my mind it transposed.
Sorry, if I made that unclear.
Originally posted by Red NightI see what you mean. My point is that transposition only happens if after 11.Nc3 Ne7 white plays 12.Bxf4 (and black effectively played 11. ... Ne7 instead of fxe3?!) . But Keres' mainline is 11.Nc3 Ne7 12.Nd5 Qf5! 13.Nxc7 Ng6! 14.Nxa8 Na6 with unclear but about equal position, and that is a unique variation.
To the position we could have gotten if we had played Nc3 instead Bxf4.
I understand that had we played Nc3, we could have played something other than Bxf4 now (Nd5), but I think Bxf4 is stronger than Nd5 and so in my mind it transposed.
Sorry, if I made that unclear.
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3
6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qxd4+ 10. Be3 Qf6
11. Bxf4 Ne7 12. Nc3
I thought I'd missed out a whole day and failed to give my insights into blacks 11th move but I was wrong, it was made without discussion. That is a pity as we have now reached a critical phase where black needs to play 100% accurately or lose. A correct 11th move was vital and plenty of chance for mistake exist at this point.
Korchnoi in his book on the Kings Gambit suggested 11. ... Bg7 when 12. Nc3 and then 12. ... Ne7 but this leads to a certain win for white after 13. Nd5 Qg6 (if 13. ... NXN, 14. QXN+ Qe6, 15. Bd2+ Kg1?? [better is 15. ... Bf6] 16. Rae1 QXQ, 17. Re8+ Bf8, 18. Bh6 (1-0 Smirnov-Tikhonov, USSR 1954). It is not certain that 11. ... Bg7 must lose and 12. ... Nc6 or 12. ... Qf5 may still leave black with chances. As an outside possibility 12. ... d6 may also be playable. All these options warrant analysis.
At this stage white has no better move than 12. Nc3 when accurate defence will be required by black.
The Tikhonov-Smirnov game and possible improvements on it were mentioned on the previous page. I don't have Korchnoi's book but I find it interesting that the different sources use the same games. Probably because the double muzio is not played that often at master level (to my knowledge, Tikhonov was a 2000-player, not higher).
Qb3+ is interesting...
eg. 12. Qb3+..Qe6 13. Be5+ (better than taking on c7 as it keeps the king limited in flight squares)..Kg8 14.Qg3+..Ng6 15.Rf6..Bc5+ 16.Kh1
Here 16..Qxe5 loses the Queen to Rxg6+, but my head hurts. Most other queen moves look bad for black because of RxN, and ..Qe8 allows 17Qb3+ back and forth b3-g3 and a draw
Originally posted by Mephisto2If you were in the position would you have played 12. Nd5 or 12. Bxf4?
I see what you mean. My point is that transposition only happens if after 11.Nc3 Ne7 white plays 12.Bxf4 (and black effectively played 11. ... Ne7 instead of fxe3?!) . But Keres' mainline is 11.Nc3 Ne7 12.Nd5 Qf5! 13.Nxc7 Ng6! 14.Nxa8 Na6 with unclear but about equal position, and that is a unique variation.
Originally posted by ExumaI have one game in my database with 12. Qb3+
Qb3+ is interesting...
eg. 12. Qb3+..Qe6 13. Be5+ (better than taking on c7 as it keeps the king limited in flight squares)..Kg8 14.Qg3+..Ng6 15.Rf6..Bc5+ 16.Kh1
Here 16..Qxe5 loses the Queen to Rxg6+, but my head hurts. Most other queen moves look bad for black because of RxN, and ..Qe8 allows 17Qb3+ back and forth b3-g3 and a draw
It continued
12...Ke8
13. Be5 Qb6+
14. Qxb6 axb6
15. Bxh8 Ng6
And black eventually won.
After 12.Nc3 there are a few possibilities:
12. ... Nf5 (ECO 'mainline'😉 was long seen as the 'refutation' of the double Muzio (but that is far from reality)
12. ... Bg7 or 12. ... d5 are transpositions of earlier possibilities
12. ... Qf5 is another Keres recommendation. Planning to play Ke8 and Qe6 to 'resolve' the f-line pins. This would be my choice.
Originally posted by Mephisto2I agree that Qf5 looks like Black's best chance.
After 12.Nc3 there are a few possibilities:
12. ... Nf5 (ECO 'mainline'😉 was long seen as the 'refutation' of the double Muzio (but that is far from reality)
12. ... Bg7 or 12. ... d5 are transpositions of earlier possibilities
12. ... Qf5 is another Keres recommendation. Planning to play Ke8 and Qe6 to 'resolve' the f-line pins. This would be my choice.
Mephisto: The last time we did this we were out of book on move 2 or 3. This time we follow long book lines well into the game.
I'm hoping for Nf5. I also show Ke8 and Qc6 as possibilities.