1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3
6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qxd4+ 10. Be3 Qf6
11. Bxf4 Ne7 12. Nc3 .....
Let us take a step back away from the immediate tactics and try and assess this position. As far as material is concerned white has given up 2 minor pieces but with the exception of the QR has every piece developed and has lovely open lines for them. Black despite being 2 pieces up has 5 of his pieces on the original squares and some of these are still blocked in by pawns. Blacks King is very exposed on the open f file and to make matters worse his Queen is sitting in front of it.
White has given up a lot of material and needs to find a decisive attacking plan. Moves such as Nd5, B move + (following any queen move), Various Queen checks and Rad1 or Rae1 (possibly too slow unless done with check) are all possibilities. Of these the immediate threat of Nd5 looks most dangerous as if NXN, QXN+, any B move attacks the Q and Rae1 may become playable with check. To counter all these potential threats black needs to play accurately but being 2 pieces up he could give away a couple of pieces and if in the process can grap a pawn or 2 will win.
So blacks plan is simply a solid defence, giving up a few pieces but in the process getting his King to safety (preferably on the Q-side) and getting his Rooks out.
We have already seen that perhaps the most obvious move 12. ... Bg7 fails as it trasposes into the previously quoted lines and games. So what are the alternatives?
12. ... Nf5 and 12. ... Qf5 are suggested as the main possibilities but first we must discard the alternatives..
12. ... Qc6. This move leaves the King exposed but gets the queen off the vulnerable f file and threatens to exchange queens when black will win. So it seems a good idea. Whites most dangerous response seems to be 13. Ne5 blocking the attack on the queen and renewing threats following a B move. There follows 13. ... d5 (opening lines for the B and attacking the Knight), 14. Be5+ .. Bf5, 15. Ng3 .. Nd7 (getting pieces out. Qc5+ is an unnecessray diversion), 16. Bd4 (BXR is playable but NXf5 would be unwise) Nf6, 17. NXf5 .. Neg8 when for the price of a piece black has a little more security. So 12. ... Qc6 looks playable.
12. ... Ke8 trying to head for safety immediately. 13. Rae1 bringing whites last piece into play with a pin on the f file can't be bad (black cannot sneak off to d8 due to BXc7+ winning the Queen). 13. ... d6 covering the diagonal so Kd8 becomes playable and trying to get the B out, 14. Nd5 (was always going to be a dangerous white move) .. Qd4+ (probably has to be played), 15. Rf2 (15. Be3?? looks tempting but whites attack falls to pieces after 15. ... QXd5), 15. ... Kd7 (the pin must be released and Kd8 does not work as 16. Bg5 renews the pin and leaves black few choices), 16. Rd1 and black must now probably give up his queen for one of the Rooks. So I do not like 12. ... Ke8.
12. ... Qb6+?? fails to 13. Be3+ when black will be mated (I thought someone suggested that).
12. ... Kg8 and 12. ... Rg8 are outside possibilities as is 12. ... d6 but I am not sure any of these will be better than 12. ... Qc6 so won't waste time trying to analyse them.
I will now come back to the 1st 2 choices.
12. ... Nf5, 13. Be5!! (diverting the Q by sacrificing yet another piece temporarily) QXe5, 14. Qh5+ .. Ke7, 15. Qg5+ .. Ke8, 16. RXf5 .. Qe7, 17. Re5 .. Kd8, 18. RXe7 .. BXe7 19. Qg7 .. Re8 gives an amazing position but white probably has enough to win so 12. Nf5 must be rejected.
Finally
12. ... Qf5, 13. Qe2 threatening B move pinning Queen so 13. ... Ke8 heading to safety. 14. Be5 .. Qe6, 15. Rf6 (15. BXR would concede the initiative allowing the exchange of queens) Qg8. 3 moves now look good for white 16. Nb5, 16. Qh5+ and 16. Bxc7 but I prefer the latter as it serves to keep the king on the exposed e file. I don't feel uncomfortable with this position for black as it is difficult to see how white can make progress and a draw may be possible.
In conclusion
12. Qc6 and Qf5 are both playable but I prefer the former as being the move that seems to retain winning chances for black.
Originally posted by Dragon FireGreat analysis.
[fen]rnb2b1r/ppppnk1p/5q2/8/5B2/2N2Q2/PPP3PP/R4RK1[/fen]
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3
6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qxd4+ 10. Be3 Qf6
11. Bxf4 Ne7 12. Nc3 .....
Let us take a step back away from the immediate tactics and try and assess this position. As far as material is concerned white has given up 2 minor piec ble but I prefer the former as being the move that seems to retain winning chances for black.
i enjoyed reading it.
What about
12...Qc6
13. Qh5+ Qg6 has been tried here and after
14. Bxc7+ Ke8
15. Ne4 black seems to be in a terrible bind.
Originally posted by Red NightI also liked DF's analysis. Your reply is interesting too. But wouldn't 15. ... d6 solve black's problems (I don't mean to win necessarily)?
Great analysis.
i enjoyed reading it.
What about
12...Qc6
13. Qh5+ Qg6 has been tried here and after
14. Bxc7+ Ke8
15. Ne4 black seems to be in a terrible bind.
Originally posted by Red NightThanks.
Great analysis.
i enjoyed reading it.
What about
12...Qc6
13. Qh5+ Qg6 has been tried here and after
14. Bxc7+ Ke8
15. Ne4 black seems to be in a terrible bind.
13. Qh5+ is definately a possible move. I am not sure it is better than 13. Ne4 but it may be. I had a very brief look at it before time forced me to focus on 13. Ne4 which I felt was the most dangerous white move. Maybe we will get a chance to discuss this further if black plays 12. ... Qc6.
Originally posted by Mephisto2I don't see any other move but d6.
I also liked DF's analysis. Your reply is interesting too. But wouldn't 15. ... d6 solve black's problems (I don't mean to win necessarily)?
the one game I have with this line continued
Qh4 N(b)c6
Nf6+ Ke7
Rae1 Nf5
Here is the rest of the game.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1333123
I don't see why white couldn't play Nf6+ immediately.
So the question are there some improvements on this game:
I'm wondering about 18...Bf5.
It seems like we need to get the K off of the f file and the g file doesn't look a lot better.
So, still the ECO 'mainline'. I expect one of three moves here:
13.Ne4! with the idea of Qg6 14.g4! This is probably what will be played
13.Nd5 is an interesting alternative. The question is if after Qg6 14.Rae1 is fast enough for white, or should he try to grab back some material with Nxc7 instead
13.Be5 is surprising. After Qxe5 14.Qh5+Ke7 15.Qfg5+ (covers square e3) Ke8 16.Rxf5 Bc5+ 17.Kh1 follows Qe7 18.Re5. But is this enough to win? Also, black is not forced to take the bishop.
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3
6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qxd4+ 10. Be3 Qf6
11. Bxf4 Ne7 12. Nc3 Nf5 13. Be5.
I've already analysed this line (see above). In my opinion 13. Be5 now wins for white.
What I like about this line is that white seems to be able to throw an amazing amount of material away and still retain winning chances (in fact it is black who needs to play particularly accurately). If you are looking for an "anti-engine" opening this must be it as I am sure most engines would rate black as being significantly up until it was too late.
Originally posted by Mephisto2Oops! I guess if I make illegal moves that can have a dramatic impact on the soundness of a line. I will need to look at this again tonight as I am expecting a client an moment now.
Not sure about that. Also, you may want to revise your line because if I am not mistaken, your move 17. ... Kd8 is illegal (queen on g5). Don't you think black has defense chances after 17. ... Be7? For instance 18.Rxe6 dxe6 19.Qg7 Rf8.
I've checked out my analysis with apologies for the earlier typo.
The way I see it 13. Be5 is definately best although Nd5 is playable. Alternative moves seem to let up a little on the attack and 2 pieces down white cannot afford that.
So I have the line 13. Be5 .. QXe5 (I will consider below if black has any other options), 14. Qh5+ .. Ke7, 15. Qg5+ .. Ke8, 16. RXf5 .. Qe7 (black might have options here such as 16. ... Bc5+ but there doesn't seem anything else, 17. Kh1 .. Qe7 18. Re5 and we transpose back into the main line), 17. Re5 .. Kd8, 18. RXe7 .. BXe7, 19. Qg7 .. Re6 (19. ... Bc5+ can be interposed here again). I like this end position for white who has a Q for a R & 2Bs but can probably pick up a few pawns and has all the play. 20. Nd5 looks the best way to continue the attack when black can, at last, begin to get some pieces out. White plans Rf1 - Rf7 with an increase of pressure on the 7th rank and something must give.
Blacks other options at move 13 are
13. ... Bc5+, 14. Kh1 QXe5 (what else?), 15. Qh5+ Kf6, 16. Rae1 (getting whites last piece into play with devastating effect) d6 (how can black save the Queen?), 17. RXe5 dXe5, 18. Nd5+ Ke6, 19. NXc7+ and it must all be over.
13. ... Qb6+ 14. Kh1 d5 (Qg6 is also a possibility but nothing else looks playable), 15. NXd5 Qg6, 16. Nf4 (NXc7 is also playable and looks good) Qc6 (what else? other moves look equally bad, eg Qg8, 17. Qh5+ Ke7, 18 Rad1 and it must be over), 17. Qb3+ Ke8, 18. BXh8 and white threatens Re1 and black will have no where left to run.
13. ... Qg6??, 14. QXf5+ (BXh8 is also worthy of consideration) QXf5, 15. RXf5+ Ke6, 16. BXh8 KXf5, 17. Rf1+ Kg6, 18. RXf8 and material is equal with white having all the play.
So 13. Be5!! it must be with a forced win. Anything else is worthy of ??.[/b]