PAWN RIOT VS The Forum Move 18

I know I'm not part of the team here, but I was the first person to play this 15...b4 idea (after losing to Jonathan Rowson with 15...Rc8 I decided to find a new idea for black-see the NIC Yearbook article) and feel I have to add my tuppence worth!

For what it's worth, my plan after 18.h4 was to play 18...d5. I know it's perfectly playable OTB, but might not stand up to the scrutiny of someone's computer if they give it enough time : )

That being said, they would have to over-ride the computer a few times to reach the critical position! There are some beautiful lines here, and 19.g5 is not the clearly winning move it first appears to be!

Another plan I played recently was ...Rb8+ followed by ...Be8 (giving both defensive and attacking options from f7 should white play h5 and hxg6) and then re-route the knight (via d7) to c5 or e5.

Anyway, i'll follow this game with interest-good luck!
Andy Burnett

Andy,

There's no formal group here. People just pop in and give their vote. Feel free to join in the game, but more importantly the discussion. I enjoyed reading your thoughts.

Thanks Eladar!

I have just spent the last 30 minutes or so reading through the previous threads - a lot of work being done in there - I'm impressed!

I have also had a quick look at my old notebook analysis - notebook being a small paper notebook ; ) There are a few lines there not touched on by the guys here, but nothing too major -Tony seems to have done a fair bit of the same analysis as myself.

I remember showing the 18...d5 idea to Jacob Aaaagaaaaaaaaard a couple of years ago at the Scottish; he seemed interested but a tad doubtful about it's soundness!

Anyway, I'll have a look again tomorrow at some of my analysis and see if I can contribute something more to the debate. I should at least be able to help head off some of the more outlandish suggestions!

I analysed this quite a lot 3 years ago, but haven't had too many chances to put it into practice - people keep avoiding the Kb1 line against me. I did have a game at my local club recently where white played 18.Qd3(?!) and after 18...Rb8+ 19.Ka1 if I recall correctly I played 19...Be8 intending the Nd7-c5 manouevre and won quite convincingly.

I have to say that 18.h4 never seemed to me to be the most critical line though?! Most of the problems I found were based on white repelling black's attack, rather than being overly aggressive on the k-side himself.

Just a couple of quick lines before bedtime!

18.h4 d5!? 19.g5 Rb8+ 20.Kc1 Nh5 21. exd5 Nf4 22.Kd2 (22.Bxf4 Qxf4+ 23.Qd2 Qxf3! is a draw - don't know if black can improve on this? White certainly shouldn't avoid it if by this point) [b] 22...Rc8 23.Qb3 (23.Bxf4 Qxf4+ 24.Ke2 Bb5+ is similar to one of Tony's lines I believe) Rb8 24.Nb5 Bxb5 25.cxb5 Rxb5 26.Qxb5 Qc3+ 27.Kc1 Qa1+ 28.Qb1 Bb2+ 29.Kc1 Ne2# is a pretty line.

Sorry for going crazy with the bold ! Too many brackets : )

Originally posted by ResigningSoon
Are you looking at the same line as me? 23.Bf8? Rxf8 ....errr, what are you smoking?

No I'm not! You took with the f-pawn. 🙂

Originally posted by streetfighter
Just a couple of quick lines before bedtime!

[b]18.h4 d5!? 19.g5 Rb8+ 20.Kc1 Nh5 21. exd5 Nf4 22.Kd2 (22.Bxf4 Qxf4+ 23.Qd2 Qxf3! is a draw - don't know if black can improve on this? White certainly shouldn't avoid it if by this point) [b] 22...Rc8 23.Qb3 (23.Bxf4 Qxf4+ 24.Ke2 Bb5+ is similar to one of Tony's lines I believe) Rb8 ...[text shortened]... a pretty line.

Sorry for going crazy with the [b] bold ! Too many brackets : )[/b]

[/b]

18...d5!? is interesting. I have to wonder what happens if White tries 22. Bxf4 Qxf4+ 23. Rd2!? White is really tangled up, but I'm not so sure Black wants to play something like 23...Bxd4 to round up f3.

Originally posted by Eladar
Andy,

There's no formal group here. People just pop in and give their vote. Feel free to join in the game, but more importantly the discussion. I enjoyed reading your thoughts.

Me too! Hopefully we can keep this thread open for a while yet (I mean, don't submit our move for a while yet), so that everyone can consider our best move for a while longer

Originally posted by !~TONY~!
18...d5!? is interesting. I have to wonder what happens if White tries 22. Bxf4 Qxf4+ 23. Rd2!? White is really tangled up, but I'm not so sure Black wants to play something like 23...Bxd4 to round up f3.

moteutsch suggested it on page 2 and I immediately discounted it on account of 19.g5 😳
More anlaysis needed than one move deep next time!

By the way, what's the most recent game anyone has in this line on their databases? With 18.h4 my most recent game is Smith-Hagarova, but I haven't been keeping my TWIC updated. Maybe there were some Olympiad games in this line - anyone know??

P.S. Not that I'm recommending we just blindly follow the latest theory-just interested : )

Originally posted by streetfighter
By the way, what's the most recent game anyone has in this line on their databases? With 18.h4 my most recent game is Smith-Hagarova, but I haven't been keeping my TWIC updated. Maybe there were some Olympiad games in this line - anyone know??

P.S. Not that I'm recommending we just blindly follow the latest theory-just interested : )

Nope - not a single game in this line anywhere since Smith-Hagarova. Not a single B78 game in the Olympiad or since it in TWIC

I like h5 as well. For the time being, this locks down the h file and alleviates some of the pressure. Also, how do you know we won't eventually want to play Rb8 and attack down the open b file? If we play Rc8 now and then Rb8 later, that's a wasted tempo. Let's maintain flexibility on the queen side and defend the king side, at least for this move.

Originally posted by streetfighter
Just a couple of quick lines before bedtime!

[b]18.h4 d5!? 19.g5 Rb8+ 20.Kc1 Nh5 21. exd5 Nf4 22.Kd2 (22.Bxf4 Qxf4+ 23.Qd2 Qxf3! is a draw - don't know if black can improve on this? White certainly shouldn't avoid it if by this point) [b] 22...Rc8 23.Qb3 (23.Bxf4 Qxf4+ 24.Ke2 Bb5+ is similar to one of Tony's lines I believe) Rb8 ...[text shortened]... is a pretty line.

Sorry for going crazy with the bold ! Too many brackets : )[/b]

these lines are pretty nice...
18.h4 d5!? 19.g5 Rb8+ 20.Kc1 Nh5 21. exd5 Nf4 22.Bxf4 Qxf4+ 23.Qd2 Qxf3 I don't want to give white a draw! but he also has 24.Nb3 no? ...wait ...Bc3 hmmm... I guess we can have some fun in this line.

but how about

18.h4 d5!? 19.g5 Rb8+ 20.Kc1 Nh5 21. exd5 Nf4 22.Kd2 e6 weeeeeeee!.....this is fun

huh, before i thought d5 was surely losing

I like this line better than the 18...Ba4, I'm gonna keep looking...I really like analyzing this position

edit: crap, i think i lost a bold tag somewhere....
I think after we analyze as much as we can, if we decide we can get away with d5! we should play it. This just seems to be much in the spirit of the dragon and especially this line.

18.h4 d5!? 19.g5 Rb8+ 20.Kc1 Nh5 21. exd5 Nf4 22.Bxf4 Qxf4+ 23.Rd2 seems a little bit more difficult 23...Bxd4 this can't be best, did you have something else planned?

Originally posted by streetfighter
By the way, what's the most recent game anyone has in this line on their databases? With 18.h4 my most recent game is Smith-Hagarova, but I haven't been keeping my TWIC updated. Maybe there were some Olympiad games in this line - anyone know??

P.S. Not that I'm recommending we just blindly follow the latest theory-just interested : )

Have you seen this correspondence game? It is between 2 relatively low-ranked players, but it pre-dates Stocek's playing of ...Qc7, and doesn't seem bad at all, at least a little past the point in the game which we are considering at the moment.

[Event "CP.2004.P.00039"]
[Site "IECG"]
[Date "2004.10.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Ozturk, Erhan"]
[Black "Grossmann, Michael"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B78"]
[WhiteElo "1600"]
[BlackElo "1371"]
[PlyCount "88"]
[EventDate "2004.10.01"]
[EventType "tourn (corr)"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Ne5 12. Kb1 Nc4 13. Bxc4 Rxc4 14. g4 b5
15. b3 b4 16. bxc4 bxc3 17. Qxc3 Qc7 18. h4 h5 19. g5 Nh7 20. Qd3 Rc8 21. Nb3
Be6 22. Bd4 Bxc4 23. Qc3 Be2 24. Qxc7 Rxc7 25. Rd2 Bxf3 26. Re1 Bg4 27. Kc1 Be5
28. Bxe5 dxe5 29. Rd5 f6 30. Rc5 Rxc5 31. Nxc5 fxg5 32. hxg5 Nxg5 33. Nd3 Kg7
34. Nxe5 Be6 35. Kb2 Kf6 36. Nc6 h4 37. Nxa7 h3 38. Nc6 Bg4 39. Rf1+ Ke6 40.
Rg1 Bh5 41. a4 Kd6 42. Nd4 Kc7 43. a5 e5 44. Nb5+ Kb7 1/2-1/2

also, have you seen the Gatecrasher-Tyrannosauruschex game posted earlier in this thread?

Originally posted by ResigningSoon
18.h4 d5!? 19.g5 Rb8+ 20.Kc1 Nh5 21. exd5 Nf4 22.Bxf4 Qxf4+ 23.Rd2 seems a little bit more difficult 23...Bxd4 this can't be best, did you have something else planned?

This was the line that I alluded to in my original post. I couldn't find anything good for black after 23...Bxd4 24.Qxd4 Qxf3 Rdd1! (Not the most obvious move, but if he gets this far he'll find it I'm sure. It's the only move I think?!)

Instead of 23...Bxd4, there is the option of 23...Bf5 when it's not entirely clear how white disentangles?! However, it's not clear either how we would continue.

As I said before, I'd be perfectly happy playing 18...d5 OTB, but perhaps we should stick to 18...h5 since there is no direct refutation that I can see?

ptobler, I'll have a look at those games - thanks : )