Einstein's Relativity Is Wrong?

@metal-brain said
I never denied time dilation effects exist. Another lie from you

-a lie I never said therefore I didn't lie; Your new straw man?
So if you don't deny that time dilation exists, what was your point supposed to be there?
So there is one orbital height and only one orbital height where the time dilation from SR and GR exactly cancel out, ...so if you aren't implying that time dilation doesn't ever exist anywhere from that fact, your point is....what? Tell us. Or are you just trolling as usual?

@metal-brain said
At 3200km in orbit there is no time difference from the surface of the earth.

That's not where the GPS satellites are though is it.

@deepthought said
That's not where the GPS satellites are though is it.

Exactly!
I have repeatedly asked him what is the point is trying to make here but he never explains it.
I now think he probably has no point and knows it; Just pretending to have a point purely just for the sake of trolling; -And he is rubbish and ineffective at even doing that worthless task.
He convinces nobody here so I guess we should just ignore him; -not that I think we actually would; Difficult to ignore ranting and ravings.

@deepthought said
That's not where the GPS satellites are though is it.

No. I never claimed they were.

@humy said
-a lie I never said therefore I didn't lie; Your new straw man?
So if you don't deny that time dilation exists, what was your point supposed to be there?
So there is one orbital height and only one orbital height where the time dilation from SR and GR exactly cancel out, ...so if you aren't implying that time dilation doesn't ever exist anywhere from that fact, your point is....what? Tell us. Or are you just trolling as usual?

No Einstein equations are needed for GPS to function properly. You purposely digressed away from the subject because you know you are wrong. GPS clocks in the receivers are reset to the atomic clocks in the satellites. That is how the time difference is eliminated.

@metal-brain said
No Einstein equations are needed for GPS to function properly. You purposely digressed away from the subject because you know you are wrong. GPS clocks in the receivers are reset to the atomic clocks in the satellites. That is how the time difference is eliminated.

No Einstein equations are needed for GPS to function properly.

If relativity was hypothetically wrong then I do not deny no Einstein equations would be needed for GPS to function properly. But relativity isn't wrong and thus those equations are needed and used before GPS launch albeit generally not afterwards and neither I nor anyone here I am aware of is denying this. So what's the point you are making here? This question you never answer because you have no point.

Do you deny that fact that Einstein equations are used to calculated the GPS clock tick rates before the GPS launch? If not, can you explain why they do that if it isn't needed if that's what you are saying? If you don't deny doing that isn't needed, you have no point and make no point. Also see;
http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html
"...The engineers who designed the GPS system included these relativistic effects when they designed and deployed the system. For example, to counteract the General Relativistic effect once on orbit, the onboard clocks were designed to "tick" at a slower frequency than ground reference clocks, so that once they were in their proper orbit stations their clocks would appear to tick at about the correct rate as compared to the reference atomic clocks at the GPS ground stations. Further, each GPS receiver has built into it a microcomputer that, in addition to performing the calculation of position using 3D trilateration, will also compute any additional special relativistic timing calculations required [3], using data provided by the satellites. ..."

You purposely digressed away from the subject because you know you are wrong.

False and false. See above.

GPS clocks in the receivers are reset to the atomic clocks in the satellites.

No, after GPS launch, clocks in the GPS satellites are occasionally reset to the same time as the atomic clocks in the receivers on Earth (and the need to do that is due to the cumulative effects of of many tiny time measurement errors). So you got that back-to-front.

That is how the time difference is eliminated

No it isn't how it is done after GPS launch. See above. Also, what about before GPS launch? Do you deny that relativity time dilation equations are used to calculate and then set the tick rates of the GPS clocks belore launch? If not, you make no point.

@humy said

No Einstein equations are needed for GPS to function properly.

If relativity was hypothetically wrong then I do not deny no Einstein equations would be needed for GPS to function properly. But relativity isn't wrong and thus those equations are needed and used before GPS launch albeit generally not afterwards and neither I nor anyone here I am aware of is den ...[text shortened]... to calculate and then set the tick rates of the GPS clocks belore launch? If not, you make no point.

"Do you deny that fact that Einstein equations are used to calculated the GPS clock tick rates before the GPS launch? If not, can you explain why they do that if it isn't needed if that's what you are saying?"

I already explained it is not needed. There is nothing preventing the clock being reset after launch. I cannot think of any reason to set a time difference before launch. Can you?

I think your source of information is wrong.

@metal-brain said


I already explained it is not needed. There is nothing preventing the clock being reset after launch.

Really? So why can you not ever explain to us why they DO preset the GPS clock tick rates before launch using time dilation equations?

I cannot think of any reason to set a time difference before launch.

No surprises there. Guess why you cannot think that? Its because you don't understand basic physics.

Can you?

Yes. That would be the actual reason why there is a need to do it; its because else the tick rate of the GPS satellite clocks would be so wrong that those clocks would quickly become so way off from that of receiver clocks that the whole GPS system would quickly become useless. At least one of the links I provided explained that. If the tick rate of the GPS satellite clocks is set wrong before launch then there would be a need to almost constantly reset the current time given by the sat clocks, a difficult task, after launch to compensate for making that stupid error of making the tick rates set wrong by ignoring relativity equation before launch. Fortunately, unlike you, the people in charge of GPS choose to use their brain and thus don't make such a stupid error and thus, thanks to the clock tick rates being set to the correct tick rates before launch, there isn't a need to almost constantly adjust the clocks but rather only the occasional relatively less frequent need and thus the task is made a lot easier and more practical.

I think your source of information is wrong.

How so? In what way? Which part of that info you say is wrong? And do you think that info is wrong just because it contradicts one of your ignorant layperson opinions on it? If so, which one? And what is your source of info that that info is wrong?

@humy said
Really? So why can you not ever explain to us why they DO preset the GPS clock tick rates before launch using time dilation equations?

I cannot think of any reason to set a time difference before launch.

No surprises there. Guess why you cannot think that? Its because you don't understand basic physics.

Can you?

Yes. That would be the actu ...[text shortened]... layperson opinions on it? If so, which one? And what is your source of info that that info is wrong?

" its because else the tick rate of the GPS satellite clocks would be so wrong that those clocks would quickly become so way off from that of receiver clocks that the whole GPS system would quickly become useless. "

That makes no sense. Resetting the clock makes that unnecessary. You read one article that says it is necessary and you accepted that without any logical explanation. I think the information is false.

@metal-brain said
Resetting the clock makes that unnecessary.

No, it doesn't. Because the tick rate, which determines how 'fast' or 'slow' the clocks are, isn't what is reset after launch. Only the current time the sat clocks say is occasionally reset, i.e. putting the clocks 'back' or 'forward' by x amount of time, after launch, not their tick rate. Therefore, if relativity was ignored before launch when setting the sat tick rate then those clocks will become rapidly out of sync with ground clocks and thus will require much more frequent, ridiculous frequent in fact, resetting to keep GPS functioning. Fortunately, unlike you, the people in charge of GPS wouldn't stupidly do that.
If you cannot comprehend that then you are even more stupid than I thought.

@humy said
No, it doesn't. Because the tick rate, which determines how 'fast' or 'slow' the clocks are, isn't what is reset after launch. Only the current time the sat clocks say is occasionally reset, i.e. putting the clocks 'back' or 'forward' by x amount of time, after launch, not their tick rate. Therefore, if relativity was ignored before launch when setting the sat tick rate then tho ...[text shortened]... ldn't stupidly do that.
If you cannot comprehend that then you are even more stupid than I thought.

"Because the tick rate, which determines how 'fast' or 'slow' the clocks are"

What is your source of information?

http://alternativephysics.org/book/GPSmythology.htm

@metal-brain said
"Because the tick rate, which determines how 'fast' or 'slow' the clocks are"

What is your source of information?

I have already given it to you several times for you to just deny I have.
Here it is yet again for you;
http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html
"....
the clock ticks from the GPS satellites must be known to an accuracy of 20-30 nanoseconds. However, because the satellites are constantly moving relative to observers on the Earth, effects predicted by the Special and General theories of Relativity must be taken into account to achieve the desired 20-30 nanosecond accuracy.
...
The engineers who designed the GPS system included these relativistic effects when they designed and deployed the system. For example, to counteract the General Relativistic effect once on orbit, the onboard clocks were designed to "tick" at a slower frequency than ground reference clocks, so that once they were in their proper orbit stations their clocks would appear to tick at about the correct rate as compared to the reference atomic clocks at the GPS ground stations...."

-OK, that was from a science website. And I can give other examples of science websites that say basically the same thing but using different wording.
So can you give a science website that contradicts the info in the above?
If not; I have given my source of info for the above info while you have given no source of info that contradictis i.e. says specifically the above info is wrong thus you have no source of info that my info is incorrect.
So who do you think all the readers of these posts here will believe on this?
-You, the clearly arrogantly delusional layperson because he thinks he knows better than the experts?
-Or the info from the experts that you failed to show is probably wrong?
-its the latter.

@humy said
I have already given it to you several times for you to just deny I have.
Here it is yet again for you;
http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html
"....
the clock ticks from the GPS satellites must be known to an accuracy of 20-30 nanoseconds. However, because the satellites are constantly moving relative to observers on the Earth, effects predicted by ...[text shortened]... xperts?
-Or the info from the experts that you failed to show is probably wrong?
-its the latter.

http://alternativephysics.org/book/GPSmythology.htm

If it were necessary to accommodate for relativity at different latitudes and altitudes, the calculations would be very complex and would need to be done at the receiver. But they aren’t done there: only a fixed time adjustment is made at the satellites for all points on Earth. This fact alone demonstrates that Relativity is irrelevant to the GPS operation.


Conclusion

The presence of Special and General Relativity effects has no bearing on the accuracy of GPS operation. In summary, it wouldn’t matter whether clocks aboard GPS satellites ran faster or slower than Earth’s clocks or even changed their speed each day. Just so long as the satellites’ clocks remained synchronised with each other and the time-difference relative Earth’s clocks didn’t become too large, GPS receivers would continue to calculate their correct position.

The GPS is certainly an excellent navigational aid. But from an operational viewpoint at least, it doesn’t serve as a test for Relativity. Scientists should stop calling it that.

@metal-brain said
http://alternativephysics.org/book/GPSmythology.htm

If it were necessary to accommodate for relativity at different latitudes and altitudes, the calculations would be very complex and would need to be done at the receiver. But they aren’t done there: only a fixed time adjustment is made at the satellites for all points on Earth. This fact alone demonstrates that Rela ...[text shortened]... wpoint at least, it doesn’t serve as a test for Relativity. Scientists should stop calling it that.

The correction for relativity is rather easy to calculate as I demonstrated above.

@metal-brain said

Conclusion

Nobody here believes any of your worthless ignorant idiotic BS conclusions.
We only listen to the experts and what the science says.