Originally posted by EladarSo just what is your bottom line here? Are you advocating we do nothing about climate change? Are you suggesting we are not adding to the problem, mankind, that is? What makes you an expert on this? Are you a climatologist? Are you suggesting it's all in 'god's hands and we don't need to worry since this god will keep us from destroying ourselves? Are you saying we are incapable of ruining the climate?
That just goes to show that you aren't too good a mind reading. Then again, it might be that you aren't too good at reading in general since I corrected you the first time you said it.
It seems to me that you are more interested in blowing smoke than actually understanding what the other person says. There are alot of people like that on internet boards ...[text shortened]... are. It is a total waste of time trying to discuss things with people who only want to argue.
My position is that the primary source of global climate change is the sun and natural cycles.
Even if CO2 is a major cause of global warming, there is no way to control it. Try driving through El Paso and seeing all the pollution floating over the border. Increase pollution controls even more and all you get are more factories being moved to other countries.
I'll say it again: CO2 isn't the primary cause of global warming and claiming it is does nobody any good. If you want to lower CO2 levels then come up with a way of controlling the problem in developing countries first.
Originally posted by EladarSo when you say "here is no way to control it" what you really mean is that attempting to control it in the US alone will not work.
My position is that the primary source of global climate change is the sun and natural cycles.
Even if CO2 is a major cause of global warming, there is no way to control it. Try driving through El Paso and seeing all the pollution floating over the border. Increase pollution controls even more and all you get are more factories being moved to other coun ...[text shortened]... r CO2 levels then come up with a way of controlling the problem in developing countries first.
Do you have any statistics to back that up? What percentage of CO2 pollution is created by factories that could move to other countries? Will power stations, and vehicles move too?
You sound as if you don't want to accept that CO2 is a cause of global warming simply because you would feel helpless to do anything about it if it was. You also sound like you are worried that you might have to change your lifestyle.
And what is your position on whether or not the earth is currently warming. You previously implied that you thought it was cooling, but have not done very well when it comes to backing up such a position.
I'm sure that's what you are reading into my post, but that's not what I'm saying.
And what is your position on whether or not the earth is currently warming. You previously implied that you thought it was cooling, but have not done very well when it comes to backing up such a position.
Look at least year's temps. Look at the temps so far this year. Look at the amount of arctic ice we have this year. You may not like what you see, but doesn't change the fact that last year the earth actually cooled off.
Originally posted by Eladar…...Increase pollution controls even more and all you get are more factories being moved to other countries...…
My position is that the primary source of global climate change is the sun and natural cycles.
Even if CO2 is a major cause of global warming, there is no way to control it. Try driving through El Paso and seeing all the pollution floating over the border. Increase pollution controls even more and all you get are more factories being moved to other coun r CO2 levels then come up with a way of controlling the problem in developing countries first.
-not if those pollution controls are a result of greater energy efficiency
-not if those pollution controls are a result of greater use of wind power and solar power etc.
-not if those pollution controls are a result of banning the more dangerous poisonous chemicals for less toxic alternatives.
-not if those pollution controls are a result of catalytic converters removing toxic gasses from exhaust fumes.
-not if those pollution controls are a result of enforcing more stringent safety rules to prevent accidental releases of chemical waste.
-not if those pollution controls are a result of greater recycling.
Originally posted by EladarSo what? -the temperature is bound to occasionally go down as well as up with or without global warming -the general longer-term trend is still up.
I'm sure that's what you are reading into my post, but that's not what I'm saying.
[b]And what is your position on whether or not the earth is currently warming. You previously implied that you thought it was cooling, but have not done very well when it comes to backing up such a position.
Look at least year's temps. Look at the temps so far this y ...[text shortened]... ke what you see, but doesn't change the fact that last year the earth actually cooled off.[/b]
So what? -the temperature is bound to occasionally go down as well as up with or without global warming
Global warming is when the overall temperature of the earth increases. Therefore it is impossible to have global warming when the temperature goes down. That would be global cooling.
Originally posted by Eladar…...Global warming is when the overall temperature of the earth increases.
[b]So what? -the temperature is bound to occasionally go down as well as up with or without global warming
Global warming is when the overall temperature of the earth increases. Therefore it is impossible to have global warming when the temperature goes down. That would be global cooling.[/b]
...…
Yes: Global warming is when the overall temperature of the earth increases IN THE LONG RUN. Obviously that does not exclude temporary drops in temperature due to natural fluctuations over a decade or over a course of a year etc.
Originally posted by EladarIf you thought that was a valid way of looking at things, then you would say the temperature of your kitchen went down in summer when you opened the refrigerator, you are standing in front of it, your legs feel colder so you say, AH, it must be a cooling trend.
[b]So what? -the temperature is bound to occasionally go down as well as up with or without global warming
Global warming is when the overall temperature of the earth increases. Therefore it is impossible to have global warming when the temperature goes down. That would be global cooling.[/b]
Originally posted by EladarClearly he is talking about a longer period of time than you. You speak of the temps last year as if that were significant.
[b]Yes: Global warming is when the overall temperature of the earth increases IN THE LONG RUN.
What period of time is the long run? 10 years? 100 years? 1000 years? 10 000 years?[/b]
Yes, longer, but I want to know how much longer? If the heating cycle lasted 10 or 20 years, but the earth is still relatively cooler than 200 years ago, then the 10 to 20 years is a relatively small window. I'm just wondering if the window he is choosing. If he is choosing a small window to support the claim, then he is doing the same thing he claims I'm doing.
Originally posted by EladarWhy don't you go to real scientists about all this? Could it be you are just prejudiced towards them and cannot accept whatever advice they would give you and so you come to us, technicians, engineers, chess players and so forth so you can safely rail against the system?
Yes, longer, but I want to know how much longer? If the heating cycle lasted 10 or 20 years, but the earth is still relatively cooler than 200 years ago, then the 10 to 20 years is a relatively small window. I'm just wondering if the window he is choosing. If he is choosing a small window to support the claim, then he is doing the same thing he claims I'm doing.
Originally posted by EladarI won't touch that with a ten foot yeti.
[b]Why don't you go to real scientists about all this
I'd say your reasoning is pretty circular. A real scientist would support what I believe about global warming. If a scientist says something different, then he isn't a real scientist.[/b]