Originally posted by twhiteheadI said before our universe has several different effects taking place with
An I have asked time and again whether you can name any such effects and even whether or not you think such effects exist. To date you have not only not named any such effects, but you have agreed in the past that it is possible that no such effects may exist ie you have accepted that the two ways of looking at things may be observationally indistinguishable.
in it, things go faster they go slower, things get hotter they get colder,
things get larger and smaller, the affects that occur are manifold. So we
discuss an effect that appears to alter things and the predictable outcomes
we can see various changes in devices that track time. So my question has
been and still is, is it time or the devices that have been affected? I do
believe it was you that pointed out even mechanical devices work
differently at different heights. So why not electronic ones or any other means
we use to measure things get altered as well under different conditions, if
the effect acts upon all things in a predictable manner we can use it to
our advantage as we do, even if we are currently viewing it wrong at the
moment? I imagine if are viewing things as they actually are we will be
able to do more in the long run by adjusting our assumptions upon reality
instead of something else, if time is in deed not affected by any universal
effect.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayRelativity says nothing about "devices". It says something about time.
I said before our universe has several different effects taking place with
in it, things go faster they go slower, things get hotter they get colder,
things get larger and smaller, the affects that occur are manifold. So we
discuss an effect that appears to alter things and the predictable outcomes
we can see various changes in devices that track time. ...[text shortened]... ity
instead of something else, if time is in deed not affected by any universal
effect.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayI am not disputing your ideas, but rather asking whether they can be distinguished from relativity experimentally. You imply consequences, but I still don't understand what you think those consequences are.
So why not electronic ones or any other means we use to measure things get altered as well under different conditions, if the effect acts upon all things in a predictable manner we can use it to our advantage as we do, even if we are currently viewing it wrong at the moment?
Originally posted by KellyJayWhen I was a baby I was scared to death when my mother hide her face. I thought she was gone, that she didn't existed anymore. I was so relieved when she showed her face again and said peekaboo.
Yet without our devices we have what to say about time?
Kelly
Now I'm big enough to realize that my mother is not gone of the only reason that I cannot see her face.
Of course time exists, even without clocks. We are grown-ups, all of us.
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Originally posted by KellyJayYou can determine it indirectly, for example you can say something about how long some process took by studying e.g. particle trajectories. All of this wouldn't make any sense without relativity, for example fast-moving radioactive particles decay much slower than slowly moving ones.
Yet without our devices we have what to say about time?
Kelly
Originally posted by KazetNagorraHere's one that I thought was very convincing:
You can determine it indirectly, for example you can say something about how long some process took by studying e.g. particle trajectories. All of this wouldn't make any sense without relativity, for example fast-moving radioactive particles decay much slower than slowly moving ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Muon_lifetime
Click on the reference in this section (17) and see Example 13-3 in "Intermediate Electromagnetic Theory" for more details.
Originally posted by PBE6Indeed, muon decay was one of the earliest confirmations of special relativity.
Here's one that I thought was very convincing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Muon_lifetime
Click on the reference in this section (17) and see Example 13-3 in "Intermediate Electromagnetic Theory" for more details.
Originally posted by twhiteheadWe bottomed out on this when you tell you think we are looking at a
I am afraid I do not understand your explanation. Could you explain it in the form of an experiment that would distinguish between the two possible scenarios?
time dialation and I said it could be a material dialation, in my opinion
if something shifts in time it isn't in our now any more, exactly how many
times do you want to read that?
Kelly
Originally posted by twhiteheadI know in our universe when we look at the very large or the very small
I am not disputing your ideas, but rather asking whether they can be distinguished from relativity experimentally. You imply consequences, but I still don't understand what you think those consequences are.
the rules don't seem to be the same, for me I believe the rules are the
same, we just don't understand them yet.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayTime dilation is not shifting in time. Is it possible you still don't understand the concept?
We bottomed out on this when you tell you think we are looking at a
time dialation and I said it could be a material dialation, in my opinion
if something shifts in time it isn't in our now any more, exactly how many
times do you want to read that?
Kelly
I think the only way to resolve this is for you to suggest ways in which you would determine the difference between your understanding and what you believe relativity implies.
For example, in my view, we could hold a real-time phone conversation even if I was experiencing time dilation and you were not, I would simply sound like I was speaking slower and you would sound like you were speaking faster. Do you think that would or would not be the case in your version?
Originally posted by KellyJayAs far as relativity is concerned the rules are the same, they just seem different because the effects are minimal at slow speeds. Its rather like the way gravity has little or no effect on the workings of atoms and chemical reactions, but on larger scales it is quite noticeable.
I know in our universe when we look at the very large or the very small
the rules don't seem to be the same, for me I believe the rules are the
same, we just don't understand them yet.
Kelly
I also think we do understand most of the rules rather well. Certainly we seem to understand relativity well enough to create a working GPS system.
Kelly, what kind of experiment can you imagine that would differentiate between your version of reality and our version of reality Vis a Vis time? You realize whatever system you come up with has to jive with what we already know in terms of the equations that actually work perfectly to allow the adjustments we think of as time adjustments that allows GPS to work and other kinds of communications like the redshift that happens to light and radio (EM radiation in general) that happens when EM goes by a gravitational mass (it changes in wavelength and if you have a transmitter tuned to one wavelength and the signal passes close to a significant gravity well like the sun, there is a small shift which can effect bit rate errors and so forth). Your theory has to account for all those details that have been worked out to our satisfaction now. For instance, your theory of material effecting time would have to jive with muon decay that first showed what we believed to be time dilation, your physical dilation has to jive with all that, so what is it you imagine it to be, give me a word picture of such an experiment that would support your POV.
Originally posted by twhiteheadActually the argument was made here by another that two people can
Time dilation is [b]not shifting in time. Is it possible you still don't understand the concept?
I think the only way to resolve this is for you to suggest ways in which you would determine the difference between your understanding and what you believe relativity implies.
For example, in my view, we could hold a real-time phone conversation even if ...[text shortened]... ike you were speaking faster. Do you think that would or would not be the case in your version?[/b]
be placed in different conditions and in "absolute time" one will experience
ten years to another's one. That to me has one moving at a different rate
of time, not just having their life burn hotter as if it were a candle so it goes
away quicker. Maybe that isn't how you view it, but I've been talking to
more than a few here and I have been getting statements like that now
and then, and when I'm the only that is being disagreed with it feels like
everyone else is in agreement. I know I'm not the only one being disagreed
with even in this thread, but the feeling gets there from time to time.
Kelly