17 Oct 17
Does modern science allow us to know the truth, or simply what we understand?
For instance, assuming Jesus created wine out of water, could modern science deduce the method by which the wine was created?
If one could go back in time, take a sample of that wine moments after Jesus turned water into wine, could science determine the process by which it was made. Assuming Jesus made actual wine based on actual grapes, could science determine the kind of grape used? How long it was allowed to age?
Or would this be cheating and Jesus intentionally lied to us by making such a perfect wine? Did Jesus intentionally mislead people by making wine out of water?
17 Oct 17
Originally posted by @eladarWhat's the hypothesis? Premise? Rationale? Caveats? Design the experiment you want to run. If the laws of nature haven't changed since Jesus, then why do we need to go back in time?
Does modern science allow us to know the truth, or simply what we understand?
For instance, assuming Jesus created wine out of water, could modern science deduce the method by which the wine was created?
If one could go back in time, take a sample of that wine moments after Jesus turned water into wine, could science determine the process by which i ...[text shortened]... making such a perfect wine? Did Jesus intentionally mislead people by making wine out of water?
Of course we know you can turn water into wine, we do it by the millions of gallons. What are you testing? The type of grape?
If you can't design an experiment to test a hypothesis, then you have found the limit of science.
Originally posted by @wildgrassI am talking fact, not your religious beliefs.
What's the hypothesis? Premise? Rationale? Caveats? Design the experiment you want to run. If the laws of nature haven't changed since Jesus, then why do we need to go back in time?
Of course we know you can turn water into wine, we do it by the millions of gallons. What are you testing? The type of grape?
If you can't design an experiment to test a hypothesis, then you have found the limit of science.
The question was asked. If a sample of Jesus' wine created from water were to be determined to be from water or would it be determined it was made by grapes. The assumption that it was actual wine.
Originally posted by @eladarAre you asking whether it was a zinfandel or a shiraz? Or whether someone could tell by tasting that it had been made by a miracle?
Does modern science allow us to know the truth, or simply what we understand?
For instance, assuming Jesus created wine out of water, could modern science deduce the method by which the wine was created?
If one could go back in time, take a sample of that wine moments after Jesus turned water into wine, could science determine the process by which i ...[text shortened]... making such a perfect wine? Did Jesus intentionally mislead people by making wine out of water?
17 Oct 17
1 edit
Originally posted by @eladarIf its wine it's wine. There is white, red, rose (mixed) blush and so forth. The thing you seem to think is that story is true just because it is in the bible. Since you don't have a sample the point is mootr one way or the other. It's really funny the way you religious folks try to foist on us in the sciences that scienceis our religon. You don't seem to understand we go by evidence. So what we call confidence within some window, you want to force us to think therefore we just believe in some answer as cut in stone.
Place any name you like, the principle is the same.
The only cut in stone is in fact your religion and every other religion on Earth. You cannot now, in the past, in the future, change your dogma about creation or evolution no matter what evidence comes along refuting both of those issues.
So you do your backup program, telling us science is a religion and it's all based on faith.
That is 100% wrong no matter HOW you slice it.
Evidence changes, we change our perspective, not faith.
Here is a hot news item that changes attitudes in one science:
http://www.sciencealert.com/more-than-30-000-scientific-studies-could-be-wrong-due-to-contaminated-undying-cells
17 Oct 17
Originally posted by @eladarWe don't have evidence that Jesus created wine out of water, so we can't perform any experiments on the wine in question.
Does modern science allow us to know the truth, or simply what we understand?
For instance, assuming Jesus created wine out of water, could modern science deduce the method by which the wine was created?
If one could go back in time, take a sample of that wine moments after Jesus turned water into wine, could science determine the process by which i ...[text shortened]... making such a perfect wine? Did Jesus intentionally mislead people by making wine out of water?
17 Oct 17
Originally posted by @sonhouseThe assumption is that the story is true.
If its wine it's wine. There is white, red, rose (mixed) blush and so forth. The thing you seem to think is that story is true just because it is in the bible. Since you don't have a sample the point is mootr one way or the other. It's really funny the way you religious folks try to foist on us in the sciences that scienceis our religon. You don't seem to ...[text shortened]... cealert.com/more-than-30-000-scientific-studies-could-be-wrong-due-to-contaminated-undying-cells
17 Oct 17
Originally posted by @kazetnagorraWe can't go back in time either.
We don't have evidence that Jesus created wine out of water, so we can't perform any experiments on the wine in question.
The question is if science can determine if something was made by a miracle or if it was made by natural methods.
17 Oct 17
Originally posted by @eladarThis is no doubt a trap question, answer yes, you go to plan A, we answer no, you go to plan B. Either way you figure you win.
We can't go back in time either.
The question is if science can determine if something was made by a miracle or if it was made by natural methods.
17 Oct 17
Originally posted by @sonhouseIt is not a win question. It is a this is the reality of the situation question.
This is no doubt a trap question, answer yes, you go to plan A, we answer no, you go to plan B. Either way you figure you win.
The only question is if you want to be intellectually honest or if you want to be ideological purist.
18 Oct 17
Originally posted by @eladarI think it's possible to distinguish between wine made in different wineries by chemical analysis. So one could see if the sample of miracle wine corresponded to the output of mundane vineyards. The catch is that if it did correspond to Chateau Latour, for example, one could not rule out a miraculous copy. Having said that, since God is meant to be righteous he presumably would not infringe on copyrights, so there ought to be a detectable difference. The devil, on the other hand, is under no such constraint, so demonic wine might be indistinguishable - unless God were to intervene to confound the fraud.
We can't go back in time either.
The question is if science can determine if something was made by a miracle or if it was made by natural methods.
18 Oct 17
Originally posted by @deepthoughtThe question is could science tell if the wine was made from grapes or water.
I think it's possible to distinguish between wine made in different wineries by chemical analysis. So one could see if the sample of miracle wine corresponded to the output of mundane vineyards. The catch is that if it did correspond to Chateau Latour, for example, one could not rule out a miraculous copy. Having said that, since God is meant to be r ...[text shortened]... so demonic wine might be indistinguishable - unless God were to intervene to confound the fraud.
18 Oct 17
Originally posted by @deepthoughtAnd, of course, the devil would be portrayed by Orson Welles.
The devil, on the other hand, is under no such constraint, so demonic wine might be indistinguishable - unless God were to intervene to confound the fraud.
18 Oct 17
We don't know how J.C. is supposed to have pulled off his "miracle." Maybe he had a gob of wine concentrate concealed in the sleeve of his robe. So, he passes his hand through the water, letting slip the concentrate using the arts of distraction of any clown circus magician, and lo! -- there is wine.