1. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    02 May '08 22:47
    Currently, a player can leave a clan, yet still play out their remaining in-progress clan games. This allows clan leaders to circumvent the 20-member limit by rotating players in and out of the clan.

    The fix to the problem is obvious: When you leave a clan, you automatically forfeit all remaining clan games.
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
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    02 May '08 23:031 edit
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Currently, a player can leave a clan, yet still play out their remaining in-progress clan games. This allows clan leaders to circumvent the 20-member limit by rotating players in and out of the clan.

    The fix to the problem is obvious: When you leave a clan, you automatically forfeit all remaining clan games.
    A draconian solution for a non-existent "problem".

    People leave clans all the time for good and valid reasons. Honorable ones wish to fulfill their commitment by finishing their existing games even though they don't want to take on any more games. Your "solution" would punish honorable players for being honorable.
  3. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    03 May '08 03:231 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    A draconian solution for a non-existent "problem".

    People leave clans all the time for good and valid reasons. Honorable ones wish to fulfill their commitment by finishing their existing games even though they don't want to take on any more games. Your "solution" would punish honorable players for being honorable.
    Perhaps you missed the various threads in the clan forums discussing clans that rotate players. [Odd, because I just noticed that you posted in one of them.]

    The talk about honor is simply irrelevant here. I'm sure many do leave a clan for good reasons, but why should their clan reap the benefit of having 21 players scoring points for them, while clans that do not rotate make do with 20?

    Now, since people 'leave clans all the time', it's plausible that several players could leave a clan at once. They could have gameloads in the hundreds. And yet, under the current system, these 'honorable' players could be replaced with other 'honorables' to make [in effect] a 25-player, 30-player, etc. clan.

    Then [as noted in the other threads] the 'replacement honorables' have to leave the clan due to life events [which magically somehow do not preempt them from finishing tons of clan games] and guess who comes back to the clan? That's right, it's the original honorable players, now free from the cares of life and ready to dial their gameload right back up [assuming it ever dropped much at all!]
  4. Standard memberCrowley
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    03 May '08 20:06
    I can't believe anybody actually still cares about clan points...
  5. Subscriberno1marauder
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    03 May '08 22:27
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Perhaps you missed the various threads in the clan forums discussing clans that rotate players. [Odd, because I just noticed that you posted in one of them.]

    The talk about honor is simply irrelevant here. I'm sure many do leave a clan for good reasons, but why should their clan reap the benefit of having 21 players scoring points for them, whi ...[text shortened]... d ready to dial their gameload right back up [assuming it ever dropped much at all!]
    First, I 100% agree with Crowley's point.

    Second, what part of people want to finish their games but not take on new ones didn't you understand?

    I don't care about this rotation non-issue; it's primarily a crybaby complaint from one user with an axe to grind against his old clan and the usual drivel from IVV. Why should this site make a rule change likely to adversely affect many players to mollify a tiny number of malcontents? Movement between clans (up to the 4 max) has always been free and non-restricted. If I decide to leave a clan, I don't want my games resigned and my opponents shouldn't want them resigned either as they are deprived of the games they are paying to play. Your proposal is counterproductive to the primary purpose of the site which is to play chess; the last thing the site needs is MORE games resigned for non-chess reasons.
  6. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    04 May '08 06:031 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    First, I 100% agree with Crowley's point.

    Second, what part of people want to finish their games but not take on new ones didn't you understand?

    I don't care about this rotation non-issue; it's primarily a crybaby complaint from one user with an axe to grind against his old clan and the usual drivel from IVV. Why should this sit to play chess; the last thing the site needs is MORE games resigned for non-chess reasons.
    First, I 100% agree with Crowley's point.

    Excellent! Given that, there should be no problem with insisting that a player remain a member of a clan if he intends to finish out his clan games for that clan. The "I don't care about total points" argument is double-edged. Maybe a clan leader only cares about winning matches against his top rivals. Great. Said player can remain a member and help his team accomplish this. For a time, the team will only have 19 players available to start new matches. So what? Most of the matches don't involve nearly that many boards in the first place.

    Second, what part of people want to finish their games but not take on new ones didn't you understand?

    I understand it perfectly. Under my proposal, they are allowed to do so, as long as they do not leave their clan.

    I don't care about this rotation non-issue; it's primarily a crybaby complaint from one user with an axe to grind against his old clan and the usual drivel from IVV.

    I'm not taking sides in the IVV vs. Metallica issue. In fact, I'm sure if I researched, I could show that both of those clans are circumventing the 20-player limit. I can also point to threads like Thread 92722 that show that there are more clans doing this than just the two aforementioned.

    That's not the point. The point is that the 20-player limit is a joke if people are allowed to retain their clan games after they leave the clan. Why not just admit it, and make clans just like clubs, and let unlimited numbers of players join? Then, I could accept letting players score points for their clan even after they left. That would at least be a logically consistent set of rules.

    If I decide to leave a clan, I don't want my games resigned and my opponents shouldn't want them resigned either as they are deprived of the games they are paying to play.

    I don't know how much clearer I can make this. The idea of my proposal is to encourage people to stay in the clan until their clan games are finished. What is so bad about this? Why would this hurt the clan much, if at all, especially given that we allegedly don't care about clan points?

    Your proposal is counterproductive to the primary purpose of the site which is to play chess; the last thing the site needs is MORE games resigned for non-chess reasons.

    If the primary purpose of the site was merely to play chess, people wouldn't bother with joining clans at all, would they? None of this would be an issue.

    In fact, I can easily modify the proposal to protect the individual player. Let's allow them to finish their clan games no matter what. If they stay in the clan and finish them, things continue as normal. If they leave the clan, the clan takes a "0" for those games, but they continue as individual rated games. This protects your 'primary purpose' of the site.
  7. Subscriberno1marauder
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    04 May '08 08:201 edit
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    [b]First, I 100% agree with Crowley's point.

    Excellent! Given that, there should be no problem with insisting that a player remain a member of a clan if he intends to finish out his clan games for that clan. The "I don't care about total points" argument is double-edged. Maybe a clan leader only cares about winning matches against his top rivals. s individual rated games. This protects your 'primary purpose' of the site.[/b]
    Shockingly enough, all of the off-topic garbage has been left here. After I post a refutation of your arguments, more will be allowed apparently. The forum posting guidelines are a joke if not enforced against everybody and regardless of who they are directed at.

    You haven't and cannot address the main argument: that your sudden rule would restrict players from moving from clan to clan in an arbitrary manner. People join clans to make it easier to play more games (they don't have to do the same number of open invites), not because they are sooooooooooooooooo obsessed about clan points. It is bizarre to still hear people bitching and complaining about something that effects ONLY a scoring system that most players know is utterly worthless.
  8. Forum Moderator
    04 May '08 08:46
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Shockingly enough, all of the off-topic garbage has been left here. After I post a refutation of your arguments, more will be allowed apparently. The forum posting guidelines are a joke if not enforced against everybody and regardless of who they are directed at.
    Relax, there isn't always a mod 'on duty'.

    This is a general warning:
    Please try to stay on topic, the place for pointless arguments is in the General and Clans forums.
  9. SubscriberVery Rusty
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    04 May '08 17:43
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    [b]First, I 100% agree with Crowley's point.

    Excellent! Given that, there should be no problem with insisting that a player remain a member of a clan if he intends to finish out his clan games for that clan. The "I don't care about total points" argument is double-edged. Maybe a clan leader only cares about winning matches against his top rivals. ...[text shortened]... s individual rated games. This protects your 'primary purpose' of the site.[/b]
    I agree with SwissGambit 100% with all his statements concerning the topic. Well Said SwissGambit !!!
  10. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    04 May '08 18:00
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    You haven't and cannot address the main argument: that your sudden rule would restrict players from moving from clan to clan in an arbitrary manner. People join clans to make it easier to play more games (they don't have to do the same number of open invites), not because they are sooooooooooooooooo obsessed about clan points. It is bizarre to still hear ...[text shortened]... bout something that effects ONLY a scoring system that most players know is utterly worthless.
    You obviously did not read, or did not comprehend, my last post.

    You haven't and cannot address the main argument: that your sudden rule would restrict players from moving from clan to clan in an arbitrary manner.

    The proposal has already been modified to have ZERO impact on the individual player that leaves a clan, yet finishes clan games for that clan.

    People join clans to make it easier to play more games (they don't have to do the same number of open invites)

    Oh, so the point of clans is to make the clan leader arrange all your games for you? And they make sure you get only 'fair challenges' against players of roughly your own strength, right? In that case, let's set up a robot that automatically pairs you in several games against players of roughly your own strength. You can tell the robot what kind of time controls you want to play, how large a gameload you want to have, etc. Problem solved. Who needs clans?

    It is bizarre to still hear people bitching and complaining about something that effects ONLY a scoring system

    Not true. Again, as I stated earlier, it's conceivable that a clan leader cares only about winning clan matches against certain hated rivals. Maybe he is like you and Crowley and doesn't care about total clan points. He could use the rotation idea to give himself two separate teams, and spread the gameload equally across both teams, thus giving each individual member a lower gameload. A reduced gameload usually means higher play quality.
  11. Standard memberRagnorak
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    04 May '08 18:15
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Currently, a player can leave a clan, yet still play out their remaining in-progress clan games. This allows clan leaders to circumvent the 20-member limit by rotating players in and out of the clan.

    The fix to the problem is obvious: When you leave a clan, you automatically forfeit all remaining clan games.
    Clan leaders who push the rules to the limit should be rewarded, especially if they are capable of constantly having more than 20 players willing to play games for them. I prefer if it stays as it is rather than limiting the freedoms of players on this pay to play site.

    So long as this rule can be bent by all clan leaders, I really don't see the problem.

    D
  12. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    04 May '08 18:34
    Originally posted by Ragnorak
    Clan leaders who push the rules to the limit should be rewarded, especially if they are capable of constantly having more than 20 players willing to play games for them. I prefer if it stays as it is rather than limiting the freedoms of players on this pay to play site.

    So long as this rule can be bent by all clan leaders, I really don't see the problem.

    D
    I agree that if the site will not change the rules, then clan leaders should take full advantage of rotation.

    The original proposal has been modified.
    If a player leaves a clan, he may finish out his clan games, but the clan takes a "zero" for those games.
    The purpose of my proposal has always been to prevent clan leaders from circumventing the 20-player limit. I have no wish to punish the individual player.
  13. Standard memberCrowley
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    04 May '08 21:14
    Originally posted by Ragnorak
    So long as this rule can be bent by all clan leaders, I really don't see the problem.
    Absolutely.
  14. SubscriberVery Rusty
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    04 May '08 22:373 edits
    Originally posted by Crowley
    Absolutely.
    I completely disagree with Rags and Crowley on the Topic.

    Of course some very good points were made, especially by Crowley!
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
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    04 May '08 23:15
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    You obviously did not read, or did not comprehend, my last post.

    [b]You haven't and cannot address the main argument: that your sudden rule would restrict players from moving from clan to clan in an arbitrary manner.


    The proposal has already been modified to have ZERO impact on the individual player that leaves a clan, yet finishes clan games f ...[text shortened]... individual member a lower gameload. A reduced gameload usually means higher play quality.[/b]
    People who play for clans agree to play their games for their and the clan's benefit. If someone decides for (whatever reason) to leave a clan, I see no logical reason for their games not to count for the clan. That's what they signed up for.

    Your second point is ridiculous and I see no reason to respond to it.

    Your far-fetched hypotheticals aside, you've given no good reason to change the rules that have existed here since the inception of the clan system. The proposed change would only restrict player freedom to the detriment of the customers here.
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