Manifestos from Game Mods

Originally posted by arrakis
Such accusations! I never even knew jameswoodley and was not told about his cheating until AFTER he joined our league team for the 3-day! I was not one to read the forums so hadn't seen any of the messages until AFTER he was on our team. W ...[text shortened]... untry - we have a bunch of politicians telling lies to the masses.

SAY WHAT?????????? Latex Bishop claimed that he had discussed the placing of JW on the team with you and you had heartily approved. I'm almost certain you posted in defense of Woodley BEFORE the start of the clan leagues when I and several others were trying to convunce your clan leader to boot JW prior to the leagues' starting. Someone IS telling lies and it's you or Latex Bishop or both, not us. This last ridiculous post is just one more reason why you are totally unqualified by your actions to be a game moderator. If you didn't realize JW was a cheater you are incompetent; if you did and still wanted him on your team, you're dishonest. Which is it, Arrakis?

And I still await an answer to my question regarding, given the totality of facts, what mechanism exists by which a player of Woodley's obviously limited skills could have shown such dramatic and rapid improvement. If there is none (and there ain't) then an experienced player would know just by looking at his graph he was a cheat. So see the two choices in the paragraph above.

I was ever so hoping that when I opened this thread it would actually be on topic, but alas it is the same as always.

5 people have voted for me, I do not feel qualified to be on the list of game moderators. I had withdrawn it in the origional thread.

Thank you to everyone who did vote for me.

Mike

Originally posted by rapalla7
I was ever so hoping that when I opened this thread it would actually be on topic, but alas it is the same as always.

5 people have voted for me, I do not feel qualified to be on the list of game moderators. I had withdrawn it in the origional thread.

Thank you to everyone who did vote for me.

Mike

A lot of people on this site seem to have a funny notion of what "off-topic" is. The thread is about the qualifications of proposed game mods - that's what we're discussing. How is that "off-topic", Mike?

Originally posted by no1marauder
A lot of people on this site seem to have a funny notion of what "off-topic" is. The thread is about the qualifications of proposed game mods - that's what we're discussing. How is that "off-topic", Mike?

Where does this say slam people trying to list their qualifications. You should start your own thread as to "why some people should not be a game mod ...


I want to vote but I dont know anything about any of the contestants.

Any recommendations anyone? Do they have manifestos that I can read.

What will they actually be doing again and what skills will they need?

Should I just vote for the highest ranking contestants?

Actually David Tebb sounds like a nice man and lots of people have voted for him so I will definately vote for him.

Anybody else want to convince me that they deserve my vote or being a newbie should i not vote at all and let those that know these people make the call?



🙂

I just would like to be able to read what peoples qualifications are....Why "they" think they are qualified, not why you don't think they are. I get bored wading through the constant bar fights.

Mike

Originally posted by rapalla7
Where does this say slam people trying to list their qualifications. You should start your own thread as to "why some people should not be a game mod ...


I want to vote but I dont know anything about any of the contestants.

Any recommendations anyone? Do they have manifestos that I can read.

What will they actually be doing again and what ski ...[text shortened]... a newbie should i not vote at all and let those that know these people make the call?



🙂

So somebody says "Vote for me, I'm super qualified" and if we say "No, he's not because of X, Y and Z" we're "off-topic"? I think the guy was looking for input, not just some campaign slogans.

Originally posted by no1marauder
So somebody says "Vote for me, I'm super qualified" and if we say "No, he's not because of X, Y and Z" we're "off-topic"? I think the guy was looking for input, not just some campaign slogans.

Very well then. I have no response.

Mike

Originally posted by no1marauder
So somebody says "Vote for me, I'm super qualified" and if we say "No, he's not because of X, Y and Z" we're "off-topic"? I think the guy was looking for input, not just some campaign slogans.

He did used to be on the ICC mods, maybe his none acceptance that JW was cheating came from ICC policy?

Id be intrested in a general outline of the ICC approach to this.

Its a shame that the JW thread still isnt up. Would be nice to be able to check things at a later date, the threads that are deleted are the ones that most need to be checked later on :-)

I remember having two days of debate with Arrakis, in the end he came to the conclusion that JW was cheating. I think because he was on the ICC team that he wanted to see for himself instead of accecpting other peoples word on it. Although by the end it was clear that JW was cheating, even without consulting engines, since JW was hitting 1600 - 1700, something which that plank could only have done in his wildest dreams.

Originally posted by no1marauder
SAY WHAT?????????? Latex Bishop claimed that he had discussed the placing of JW on the team with you and you had heartily approved. I'm almost certain you posted in defense of Woodley BEFORE the start of the clan leagues when I and several others were trying to convunce your clan leader to boot JW prior to the leagues' starting. Someone IS tell ...[text shortened]... know just by looking at his graph he was a cheat. So see the two choices in the paragraph above.

Well sir, as for myself, I do not owe you or anyone else any explainations for whatever crazy ideas you may come up with. As you know (or should know by now) I wasn't aware of any of the messages in the forums re: jameswoodley until after he was on the team. My clan leader asked me if I would like to be the team leader for the leagues and I said "sure, why not." So my part in being a team leader was putting together teams for the 7 day and 3 day events. All I did, really, was send a global message to all the members of our clan asking who would like to play in which section. After they responded and I set the teams in place I was informed that "You shouldn't include JW on the team because of the messages in the forums." I had no idea what was going on in the forums so I took a look. Then I realized the seriousness of the situation and asked one of the accusers (greyeyesofsorrow) for proof of the accusations. That's when (unfortunately) I was given several games which proved just the opposite. It's too bad that those original messages got dumped cause I spent a lot of time on those games and posted the analysis.

Now you can call me incompetent, say we are lying or whatever you want. Whatever you or anyone else says it does not change the facts from what really happened, and I will not be drawn into repeated arguements with you or any of your friends regarding this matter. I think Greyeyesofsorrow could testify to my integrity because we worked together on the JW case - which incidentally, was only 2 weeks for me before he was kicked!

Originally posted by no1marauder
So somebody says "Vote for me, I'm super qualified" and if we say "No, he's not because of X, Y and Z" we're "off-topic"? I think the guy was looking for input, not just some campaign slogans.

I think that what this site needs is a link to No1marauder so they don't need to go through the trouble of jumping to their own conclusions, or actually doing their own research. I am sorry it took me so long to come to conclusions of cheaters in the past, but I did come to them myself eventually, and I might add with no useful conversation or any data coming from you. I will consult you when I need an opinion. I can always depend on you for one.....no matter how little research of your own you have done to form it.

Originally posted by rapalla7
I think that what this site needs is a link to No1marauder so they don't need to go through the trouble of jumping to their own conclusions, or actually doing their own research. I am sorry it took me so long to come to conclusions of cheaters in the past, but I did come to them myself eventually, and I might add with no useful conversation or any data co ...[text shortened]... ys depend on you for one.....no matter how little research of your own you have done to form it.

I notice again that Arrakis refuses to answer my question and Mike, as always, tries to make it personal. As I've repeatedly said, my conclusions were based on my chess knowledge and experience NOT on any engine analysis as I have little knowledge of them. But, SURPRISE, SURPRISE, I was right, although I was far from the only one. I couldn't care less about your opinion Mike: you were insisting that Tlai1992 hadn't been proved a cheater even AFTER Russ kicked him off the site with a comment about the harm "serial cheaters" do! I'd luvvvvvvv to have you on a jury for all of my defendants; I'd be a 100% match to Perry Mason!!

On 23 September, SbecspeledrX wrote this:
...Stupid people are great, I love stupid people, they stop us haveing to think up jokes. We can just draw attention to everything they do like this.... Game 631590 and best of all this http://www.redhotpawn.com/core/viewpublicgames.php?p1name=jameswoodley&p2name=ian93&showgamescode=F&isminiboard=on .
...I sense growing pressure for Russ to kick him off, but I say keep him and I'm starting a petition to that effect....I suggest he should allow himself to fall for scholars mate 73 times in a row against Ravello. Just as Ian93 did when playing James.

Note: Evidence of cheating.

On 26 September, Arrakis wrote this:
Pardon me cause I'm new to the forums here... but when I read posts like this it makes me wonder if I should bother to read any forums at RHP at all. You see, because I am new at this forum stuff, and after reading your post, I went and looked at some of your games. :-) And I can tell you, your play is horrendous! 8-0
Sooo, I'm wondering... why would anybody listen to a lowly rated 1400 lousy player like yourself who is critical about his opponent??

I wouldn't think many peole here would be interested in ANYTHING your little mind could come up with!

Evidence of knowledge about JW, as this is in the same thread as the
preceding post.

On 7 December, Arrakis wrote this:
I didn't know anything about hameswoodley until 2 weeks ago when someone sent me an email to check his games. At that time I looked at everything that was sent to me, but unfortunately the games sent to me were not ones proving computer abuse.

2 weeks? More like 2 months!

On 21 December, Arrakis wrote this:
Russ asked us to not post any more threads about JW. I have to respect his wishes... however, I feel that it is necessary to make a comment:
JW has been kicked out of the clan leagues and also out of The Fun Clan. Please do not make a reply to this message because Russ wants the posts about JW to stop. Both the clan leader of The Fun Clan and myself (as the team captain for the leagues) felt it necessary to give this information out.

Then it took 2 weeks more weeks to conclude he was cheating, something
the community had been talking about for months?

Note this one:

On 3 December, Arrakis wrote:
...I was told that jameswoodley was using an engine to play his games. I took this very seriously, even though he was only rated in the low 1700's (not 2000+ as some messages have said). I came home and analyzed about 10 of his games. I have to tell you, he plays pretty bad chess! And most of his wins were from beating players 300 to 400 points below him. So, I mentioned to him that I was aware there had been some claims against him for using a computer and he reassured me that he doesn't use one and won't use one on our team.

10 recent games? Just because he tanked a move here and there, doesn't mean
the high level of concordance is unremarkable. Especially given his mediocre play
for months earlier, such a spike was dubious at best. One doesn't need 100%
concordance after openings to conclude a person is cheating, one needs a consistently
high level of concordance over a broad number of games with an engine. JW
overwhelmingly qualified, tanked moves or not.

On 5 December, Arrakis wrote:
Well, I finally found a game from jameswoodley that does suggest a computer program was used. It didn't help with all the BAD games that you guys kept posting...

Okay so game # 766182 Nallapuh vs jameswoodley Nov 26 looks definitely bad for the JW side.

You verified the fact that he was cheating in this one game, something
the community knew for quite some time. Grayeyesofsorrow found at
least one game for you, and indicated that there were several more. He
has posted several of these elsewhere. This would have set off warning
flags for me. Someone known to be cheating by other people independently
verified by you. That should have been an automatic 'outahere.'

You were either duped by a (bad) con, or you are trying to protect your
reputation. Either way, it raises doubts in my mind about your ability to
recognize a cheater, one which was rather obvious to the rest of the
community (including Russ).

You may have been very good with the ICC, and you may have just been
looking at the wrong games with JW. But the fact that he was in your
clan raises some doubts, and you haven't acted particularly sorry about this
error, which raises even more. Knowing in late September that JW was a
suspect for cheating, you shouldn't have let him into your clan on his word
that 'he would never cheat again.' Seeing a game in November should have
alerted you to the fact that he wasn't going to stick to his word. And,
whether he promised not to cheat in clan league games while he cheated
in other games is immaterial.

You let a known cheater stay in your clan after several people raised holy
hell about it. This does not testify to your competence in RHP sleuthing,
irrespective of your previous experience.

Nemesio

To all the arrakis detractors....

You seem to be saying that:-

a. He may have the skill to detect cheating.
but
b. He was slow to detect cheating when this issue first seriously arose.

At that point he was not responsible for detecting cheating am I right and he may have dithered too much to avoid conflict with a clan member who assured him he was straight.

Or are you really accussing him of knowingly covering his clan member.

I.e. are you accusing him of wanton corruption OR incompetence?

If incompetence is the lack of enacting an analysis OR not being able to perform an analysis.

I.e. was he too slow for you and did he not dance to your tune quickly enough?

It seems to me that if he was :-

1. Corrupt
2. Unable to analysis sufficiently when he actually got round to it.

he is unqualified.

If he simply did not jump to the job when he was prompted by others, he may be a busyman, not have regarded himself as judge and jury and hoped it would all blow over without having to go into conflict with a clan member. In addition it seems wise to me not to react to every agressive accusation and jump to someone elses agenda (within reason).

No doubt if he becomes a game mod he WILL get round to analysing games when reported as this WILL be his job, it will also be secret and thus there will be less conflict.

He also it seems to me as something serious to prove now, i.e. that he is not too lenient and will take action and he will have his detractors on his back on every decision, basically a built in check and balance.

It seems noone is going to have ago at David Tebb to check he is doing a good job or the mighty greyeyes, but half a dozen people will keep a close eye on arrakis.

Personally with that kind of attention I dont why he wants to put himself through the hassle, but maybe its a credit to his character or pride that he hangs in there under such a torrent of abuse.

His chess creditentials seem to check out on the web also.

So i am not YET convinced also no one has proposed a third man.

David Tebb obviously the quite man it seems with oodles of respect.

Grayeyes seems measured and cool (generally) in his posts and obviously has heaps of analytical experience.

Arrakis seems a good third vote for lack of another - the chess writer who avoids conflict if possible is not swayed by severe pressure and takes his time and considers the impact on the accuses seriously before acting


But then again I dont appear to have any other proposals........

Hey, what can I say: 59 million people voted for GW.

I still think it's stupid to throw the baby out with the bath water. Arrakis has bags of experience doing this very task at ICC and he's got the tools and he's willing to do the work.

The fact that he was slow to condemn someone purely on rumours in the forums that he says himself he doesn't pay much attention to is no major flaw. Graph peaks and rating rises are not enough to termitate someone's account on and the fact that Arrakis wanted to be convinced purely on examining the actual games until he found the evidence himself is a testament to his ability to do the task required. Don't we want moderators that assume people are innoccent despite what accusations are flying around in the forums?