Manifestos from Game Mods

Originally posted by Exy
I still think it's stupid to throw the baby out with the bath water. Arrakis has bags of experience doing this very task at ICC and he's got the tools and he's willing to do the work.

The fact that he was slow to condemn someone purely o ...[text shortened]... nnoccent despite what accusations are flying around in the forums?

I'm not going to dignity this ridiculous post with a detailed description of the mountain of evidence against Woodley that was posted in these forums BEFORE he was allowed to play for the Fun Clan in the clan leagues; if you insist on calling that "rumors" then we might as well close up shop on the game mods now as NO proof will EVER be sufficient. And I await Arrakis' answer to my question since he had the full details of JW's record like everybody else and still defended him. This shows incompetence or dishonesty; it's a multiple choice - pick one. Possession of either quality disqualifies him in my mind. And Exy if he's soooooooo concerned about not making accusations until there's 100% proof, please answer Osse's point that he publicly accused Geoffkus on far less evidence.

Russ had asked for it not to be posted here - it's actually against the TOS - people took it into their own hands to do so, wrongly. Also more of it was at the Forum Wars site than here. So, I'm sorry No.1 if you're setting a precedent that posts in the forums are admissible evidence then your version of what the Game Moderators ought to be and mine are vastly different! 😠

Originally posted by Exy
Russ had asked for it not to be posted here - it's actually against the TOS - people took it into their own hands to do so, wrongly. Also more of it was at the Forum Wars site than here. So, I'm sorry No.1 if you're setting a precedent that posts in the forums are admissible evidence then your version of what the Game Moderators ought to be and mine are vastly different! 😠

There wouldn't be any game mods' vote if people hadn't loudly complainled about engine users like Woodley so your version of the TOS (please point out where in the REAL TOS we can't say that blatant, obvious cheaters are cheating) would have meant NO game mods at all and continued, unabated engine use. "Admissible evidence"? I wasn't aware the rules of evidence would apply. At any rate, Arrakis was aware of the allegations and the evidence, choose to ignore it and even actually defended JW. Those are the facts; if that's your idea of a competent Game Mod then it is "vastly different" from mine.

Instead of all these public attacks, whether they are right or wrong, why not have another poll? Instead of voting for somebody to be in the CP, why not vote for a person you definitely object to being in the CP. Of course, you'd need to have the option to vote for nobody in this poll.

I dunno if it would work, or even if it fully makes sense, but it would get rid of the attacks in the forums, and it would buy Russ some more time. 😛

D

Originally posted by Ragnorak
Instead of all these public attacks, whether they are right or wrong, why not have another poll? Instead of voting for somebody to be in the CP, why not vote for a person you definitely object to being in the CP. Of course, you'd need to have the option to vote for nobody in this poll.

I dunno if it would work, or even if it fully makes sense, but it would get rid of the attacks in the forums, and it would buy Russ some more time. 😛

D

Wouldn't this be public to view... and bring more negative feelings... only difference would be people just wouldn't know who picked users to NOT be on the team??

P+

Originally posted by Ragnorak
Instead of all these public attacks, whether they are right or wrong, why not have another poll? Instead of voting for somebody to be in the CP, why not vote for a person you definitely object to being in the CP. Of course, you'd need to have the option to vote for nobody in this poll.

I dunno if it would work, or even if it fully makes sense, but it would get rid of the attacks in the forums, and it would buy Russ some more time. 😛

D

That wouldn't work, because all the cheaters would join up against GreyEyes and make him look bad, this has been done before, I don't doubt a poll would be any different. Fact of the matter is, GreyEyes peeved ppl off by exposing cheaters in their clans, and some didn't like it, and some still don't like it, either way GreyEyes is right, as 90% of the ppl he listed/accused either A) left the site, or B) confessed, and I have no doubt the other 10% will be proven as cheaters later and their time will come aswell.

Originally posted by mateulose
That wouldn't work, because all the cheaters would join up against GreyEyes and make him look bad, this has been done before, I don't doubt a poll would be any different. Fact of the matter is, GreyEyes peeved ppl off by exposing cheaters in their clans, and some didn't like it, and some still don't like it, either way GreyEyes is right, as 90% of the ...[text shortened]... I have no doubt the other 10% will be proven as cheaters later and their time will come aswell.

Not that I don't agree with you but to play devil's advocate, having the accused leave the site is not proof that the accusation was true.

Originally posted by darvlay
Not that I don't agree with you but to play devil's advocate, having the accused leave the site is not proof that the accusation was true.

But it doesn't not *not* mean the accusation was true!

Originally posted by no1marauder
But it doesn't not *not* mean the accusation was true!

Of course. 😉

no1, putting aside the JW incident, would you not agree that Arrakis is a good choice for a game moderator given his experience and skills? Is JW the only reason you don't vouch for (or hold an indifferent opinion towards) him?

Originally posted by darvlay
no1, putting aside the JW incident, would you not agree that Arrakis is a good choice for a game moderator given his experience and skills? Is JW the only reason you don't vouch for (or hold an indifferent opinion towards) him?

If not for the JW incident, I would have no problem with Arrakis being a game mod; I've played him numerous times, read some of his online articles and consider him an experienced and knowledgeable player. But as he is an experienced player, I simply cannot accept his excuses in allowing JW on his team and in defending him at all. And he still really won't admit he was wrong, either. How can we expect him to look at all the facts dispassionately in the future?

And "if not for the JW incident" you and I both know that we wouldn't be having this discussion at all as there wouldn't be any game mod vote.

Originally posted by no1marauder
If not for the JW incident, I would have no problem with Arrakis being a game mod; I've played him numerous times, read some of his online articles and consider him an experienced and knowledgeable player. But as he is an experi ...[text shortened]... ng this discussion at all as there wouldn't be any game mod vote.

I distinctly remember us giving Latex Bishop a hard time about putting JW on his league team and his reasoning was that he sought out advice from a confidante on his team whose advice he respected. This confidante, I presume, was Arrakis. Could it be that Arrakis had given Latex Bishop hasty advice to keep James Woodley on the team or that Latex Bishop had not provided Arrakis with all the proof that was floating around?

Forgive me if I'm asking a question which has already been addressed. (I'm far too lazy to read through all the threads). I ask because I voted for Arrakis (along with the obvious two others) because, at the time, I gave him the benefit of the doubt in the JW situation. His experience, to me, is something that made me overlook the JW/Fun Clan incident. But your arguments against him are convincing... (No offense, Arrakis)

And "if not for the JW incident" you and I both know that we wouldn't be having this discussion at all as there wouldn't be any game mod vote.

I agree. And I think those who are happy to see this concept come into effect should thank the people who are labelled by many as troublemakers, witch-hunters and straight up jerks, for this whole damn thing. 😏

Originally posted by darvlay
I distinctly remember us giving Latex Bishop a hard time about putting JW on his league team and his reasoning was that he sought out advice from a confidante on his team whose advice he respected. This confidante, I presume, was Arrakis. Could it be that Arrakis had given Latex Bishop hasty advice to keep James Woodley on the team or that Latex Bishop had ...[text shortened]... d by many as troublemakers, witch-hunters and straight up jerks, for this whole damn thing. 😏

I again bemoan the fact that a thread containing important information has been deleted; this was all covered in the James Woodley thread. Latex Bishop directly stated that he asked Arrakis and
if you read Nemesio's post you'll see that Arrakis admitted in a post on December 7 that he had been informed of the engine use accusations against JW 2 weeks before or more than a week BEFORE the start of the clan leagues. The discussion between myself and Latex Bishop on this matter went several pages and I'm almost sure Arrakis posted in it defending JW. This discussion was also before the start of the leagues as I was trying to convince LB to remove JW from the clan leagues team. It was all publicly posted, it should have been abundantly obvious to Arrakis that JW was cheating before the start of the leagues, period. Yet, he allowed him to remain on the team. What went on between LB and Arrakis I don't know, but if they want to share they can feel free.

Originally posted by darvlay
And I think those who are happy to see this concept come into effect should thank the people who are labelled by many as troublemakers, witch-hunters and straight up jerks, for this whole damn thing. 😏

I have the deepest respect for troublemakers and straight up jerks, but any suspected witch-hunter should be burned at the stake.😉

FWIW, I don't think that it really matters who said what when about JW or others in the past. We should try to get the most qualified people who are willing to serve as game mods. Hopefully there will be enough of them that any mod who's in an accused clan could be excluded from the investigation of that accused.

In any event, IMHO it's better to have a mod with a history of over-leniency than one with a history of jumping to conclusions. After all, isn't it better to allow 10 criminals to go free than to punish a single innocent person?

Originally posted by richjohnson
I have the deepest respect for troublemakers and straight up jerks, but any suspected witch-hunter should be burned at the stake.😉

FWIW, I don't think that it really matters who said what when about JW or others in the past. We sh ...[text shortened]... w 10 criminals to go free than to punish a single innocent person?

Rich, the point is that by late November the evidence that James Woodley was an engine user was absolutely overwhelming; I doubt if we'll EVER have such strong evidence against anybody again (nobody will be that stupid; the FW anecdote esp.). If someone was unconvinced of JW's guilt in late November ON THE MERITS then they have no business being a Game Mod IF we want the Game Mods to say anybody is guilty! If someone choose to ignore the evidence because it favored there clan team, then they are not able to make fair determinations and should not be a Game Mod for that reason. Under either scenario, Arrakis shouldn't be a game mod in my view.