1. Joined
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    13 Feb '10 20:023 edits
    How do you Christians that believe that they can continue to sin and be "of God" reconcile the following into your beliefs? Or do you just pretend that it doesn't exist?

    1 John 3:4 -9:
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
  2. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    13 Feb '10 20:31
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    How do you Christians that believe that they can continue to sin and be "of God" reconcile the following into your beliefs? Or do you just pretend that it doesn't exist?

    1 John 3:4 -9:
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in hi ...[text shortened]... commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    [/b]
    Quite simple really . We tend to incorporate it into the ENTIRE range of teachings in the Gospels and the Bible.

    We recognise that to take any one passage or even a selection of passages out of context from the whole is a mistake. Instead we wrestle with the contradictions and various messages to find the deeper meaning.

    Once you understand that different parts of the Gospel deal with different issues at different times then you become enlightened and free to see what each one is saying in it's own right and also realise that apparent contradictions are not neccessarily contradictions at all.

    I think this passage , for example, is refering to wilful sin or a committment to intentionally sin. You are inclined to disagree I guess.

    You problem is that you are a literalist and cannot deal with comparative truthes that work against each other. It's too sophisticated for you.

    It's a kind of autistic way of thinking. If you say to an autistic/apserger's child that it's raining "cats and dogs" they will look out the wondow and wonder where the Alsations and Siamese are. It's a misunderstanding of language and context.

    If you suffer from such a condition then I don't mean to offend , I'm just pointing out the difference in thinking styles and how things can be interpreted differently.

    It seems you think there can be only ONE interpretation of any passage and that's YOUR interpretation. In many ways your title of Think Of One is quite apt. It sort of implies a one track mind.
  3. Joined
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    13 Feb '10 20:521 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Quite simple really . We tend to incorporate it into the ENTIRE range of teachings in the Gospels and the Bible.

    We recognise that to take any one passage or even a selection of passages out of context from the whole is a mistake. Instead we wrestle with the contradictions and various messages to find the deeper meaning.

    Once you understand t ny ways your title of Think Of One is quite apt. It sort of implies a one track mind.
    You could have just said that you ignore what it explicitly states and feel free to alter words until the contradictions disappear.

    Is there any wonder that there isn't a large overlap between the rational and Paulians? Evidently one must be able to suspend the ability to reason.
  4. Joined
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    13 Feb '10 21:043 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    How do you Christians that believe that they can continue to sin and be "of God" reconcile the following into your beliefs? Or do you just pretend that it doesn't exist?

    1 John 3:4 -9:
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in hi ...[text shortened]... commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    [/b]
    ===============================
    Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    ================================


    And the very same author in the very same book teaches us this:

    "My little children I write these things to that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the Righteous; And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but for those of the whole world." (1 John 2:1,2)

    Obviously John knew the "little children" his Christian audience, still had the possibility to sin. Obviously also he is discouraging sinning. But if they should they have an Righteous Advocate, an Attorney, Jesus Christ who saved them and continues life long to keep them in good fellowship with the Father.

    John also wrote in the same epistle "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1:9)

    Daily confession of sins and daily cleansing of the blood of Christ keep us in the divine fellowship and cause the divine growth in spiritual life.

    ===========================================
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    =============================================


    There is no argument here. He was manifested to take away sins and sinning. And by abiding in Him we are in a realm in which there is no sinning. The problem for the Christians is to log more and more time in that realm. We go in and out of His indwelling presence. We need to learn to abide there continually for we are use to living in the old man with the old fallen nature.

    Paul prayed that the believers would be "strengthened into the inner man". The bond needs to be strengthened, made stronger so that we do not occasionally dwell in His presence but abide there, not easily moved out.

    In Christ as a spiritual realm is a sphere where we overcome our tendency to sin and live in union with Him.

    ==================================
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    ======================


    I think if you read the entire epistle, taking into account ALL that John writes there should not be any problem. By isolating passages in a biased way you may abuse John's style of absolute like statments to push a warped and unbalanced view.

    Abiding in Him (Christ the life giving Spirit) we can and do overcome the fallen sinful nature.

    Do I see Christ today ? Yes, But Oh how much MORE I need to see of Him. For my whole life my seeing, my appreciation of what Christ is in me and what He has done for me must ever deepen.

    I have seen Him. But how so much more I need to see of Him. This is how I understand John's utterance.

    ===========================================
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    ====================================


    These are obviously the utterances of an apostle who was very deep in the experience of Christ. He enjoyed Christ very deeply. And his whole epistle is to encourage his audience not to discourage his audience.

    His tone is not one of playing "king of the hill" where no one can attain to his level of spiritual growth. Rather it is full of encouragement to continue to grow.

    Only a foolish mind would take these passages as John's intended discouragment for Christians to love Christ and grow closer in their walk with Him.

    ===============================
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    ======================================


    What is the problem? When I do or say certain things I know that it was of the devil. I have no problem with that exposure. When I purposely do not abide in the Holy Spirit and sin, sure, I'm of the devil.

    If you pull the plug out of a refrigerator all the food inside will eventually rot. And if I do not abide in Christ, step by step,moment by moment, sure something rottenis going to come out.

    So we have 27 books of the New Testament much of which taken up with how to abide in Christ.

    Were you expecting a magical instantaneous switch to perfection ? Then perhaps we would have a very skinny New Testament. As it is we have epistle after epistle to edify the Christians and teach them about living Christ.

    ====================================

    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    ===================================


    Here is a translation problem. This should read "Whatsoever is born of God doth not commit sin."

    It is a what and not a who. The innermost being of man can born of God. Man's spirit is the part of him that is regenerated, born of God. In that part of man there is no sin. There is no footprint of Satan at all on man's regenerated spirit.

    That part of man is sinless. The problem is for man to set his mind on the spirit where the Spirit of Christ is after regeneration, so that the sinless living can be lived emanating from his innermost being.

    The part that has no sin is the human spirit which in regeneration is joined to the Holy Spirit - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

    My regenerated spirit has no sin and cannot sin. Christ is one with my innermost spirit. There there is no sin. My task is to "set the mind on the spirit". My task is to be strengthened into the inner man. My task is to abide in my mingled spirit where the Spirit of Christ has joined Himself to that part of my being.

    So this verse is about a WHATSOEVER that is born of God, the human spirit, the innermost kernel of the Christian.

    In that realm she must learn to abide moment by moment. And it is a life long exercise to learn to talk in spirit, think in spirit, walk in spirit, even sleep in spirit, and live in spirit. We Christians must learn to log more and more time in the realm of that sinlesss "WHATSOEVER"


    '
  5. Standard memberknightmeister
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    13 Feb '10 21:11
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    You could have just said that you ignore what it explicitly states and feel free to alter words until the contradictions disappear.

    Is there any wonder that there isn't a large overlap between the rational and Paulians? Evidently one must be able to suspend the ability to reason.
    You could have just said that you ignore what it explicitly states and feel free to alter words until the contradictions disappear.
    ---------ToOne-------------------

    Now who's misrepresenting and distorting. You know that's not what I was saying.

    However , I will not condemn you for that as you condemn me. I will just leave it up to others to think about why you seem to feel able to misrepresent others but then when you think it's been done to you you cry foul.
  6. Standard memberknightmeister
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    13 Feb '10 21:14
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]===============================
    Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    ================================


    And the very same author in the very same book teaches us this:

    "My little children I write these things to that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate ...[text shortened]... and more time in the realm of that sinlesss [b]"WHATSOEVER"


    '[/b]
    And the very same author in the very same book teaches us this:
    ------jaywill----------------------------------

    Doh!
    Don't do that Jaywill , pleeeeaaase, we will all be in danger of seeing the passage in context. If that happens we might see the truth.

    LOL

    Argh! This is going to be far too complex for TinkofOne , he can only understand one passage at at time.
  7. Joined
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    13 Feb '10 21:201 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    How do you Christians that believe that they can continue to sin and be "of God" reconcile the following into your beliefs? Or do you just pretend that it doesn't exist?

    1 John 3:4 -9:
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in hi ...[text shortened]... commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    [/b]
    I know where this will go as I've asked you this before and you never answered.....But do you sin or not? All I want is yes or no....if you can possibly do that.
  8. Joined
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    13 Feb '10 21:39
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    You could have just said that you ignore what it explicitly states and feel free to alter words until the contradictions disappear.
    ---------ToOne-------------------

    Now who's misrepresenting and distorting. You know that's not what I was saying.

    However , I will not condemn you for that as you condemn me. I will just leave it up to others to ...[text shortened]... feel able to misrepresent others but then when you think it's been done to you you cry foul.
    ThinkoOne's vendetta may go back to some painful offense he received from some evangelical Christian.

    This kind of vendetta to beat Christians over the head with various passages seems to me a nurturing of a private offense.

    It is a ministry of accusations.

    And I still do not understand why someone claiming to have clearer comprehension of the New Testament will not come out and tell us where he stands with the central tenet of the resurrection of Jesus.

    Yet he condemns Paul? Paul put all his cards out on the table. Paul did not conceal his true feelings. Paul said he and his helpers commended themselves to each man's conscience in the sight of God.

    Paul said he kept his conscience void of offenses before God AND man.

    Paul was transparent and not opague. Paul did not try to operate in stealth or concealment. You knew exactly where he was and what he believed.



    My responses are really addressed to others curious about an answer.
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    13 Feb '10 21:49
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]ThinkoOne's vendetta may go back to some painful offense he received from some evangelical Christian.
    Forgiving your enemies and even loving them is perhaps the hardest doctrine Christ espoused.
  10. Joined
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    13 Feb '10 22:07
    Originally posted by whodey
    Forgiving your enemies and even loving them is perhaps the hardest doctrine Christ espoused.
    This is why, this is why we need another life. We need another PERSON to come into our being.

    This is the Christians life. One Who is victorious and has overcome comes to live in us and to live His life AGAIN on the earth. This time though He lives it in you and I.

    I cannot love my enemies. But by abiding in His real indwelling presence, spontaneously, without effort, love flows out.

    This is called the grace of Christ.

    Paul pioneered this experience and said "It is no longer I that live. It is Christ Who lives in me."


    It is as comfortable as a hand slipping into a glove. Really. But it is radical and it is something supernatural.
  11. Standard memberknightmeister
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    13 Feb '10 22:11
    Originally posted by galveston75
    I know where this will go as I've asked you this before and you never answered.....But do you sin or not? All I want is yes or no....if you can possibly do that.
    All I want is yes or no....if you can possibly do that.
    --------------galveston---------

    He can't . He won't.

    His grinding axe would be somewhat blunted if he did.
  12. Joined
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    13 Feb '10 22:14
    Again, I would stress - the Christian life is NOT a life of self improvement. It is not self reforming. It is not turning over a new leaf to do better.

    It is the realization that you have DIED with Christ and been resurrected with Him. He is now blended with the believer.

    I died with Christ. Both my good traits and my bad traits died with Christ. Now I live a mingled life in union with Him.

    The last Adam [Christ] BECAME a life giving Spirit

    Life giving means divine life giving. Life giving means to give GOD into your being. Life giving means to dispense holiness, righteousness, and glory into your character.

    Christ in resurrection put Himself in a form, a "pneumatic" form in which He could dispense Himself to millions of people.

    These words are trustworthy.
  13. Joined
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    13 Feb '10 22:55
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    All I want is yes or no....if you can possibly do that.
    --------------galveston---------

    He can't . He won't.

    His grinding axe would be somewhat blunted if he did.
    I know he can't but I have to try again. You never know...
  14. Joined
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    14 Feb '10 12:29
    I made an error in a post above. I was wrong to say that the proper translation of 1 John 3:9 is whatsoever has been begotten of God.

    I was thinking of another verse. So let me correct myself:

    1 John 3:9 - "Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God."

    In this case ThinkoOne was more correct in his translation than I was.

    What I was thinking was the translation 1 John 5:4 - "For everyTHING that has been begotten of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory which has overcome the world - our faith."

    Aside from this error, I think the rest of my post was OK.
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    14 Feb '10 12:491 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    You could have just said that you ignore what it explicitly states and feel free to alter words until the contradictions disappear.
    ---------ToOne-------------------

    Now who's misrepresenting and distorting. You know that's not what I was saying.

    However , I will not condemn you for that as you condemn me. I will just leave it up to others to ...[text shortened]... feel able to misrepresent others but then when you think it's been done to you you cry foul.
    My comment was directed at the lack of content in your post. The vast majority of it was completely empty posturing that was not backed up by any evidence of what you attempted to claim.

    The following was the only direct reference to the passage:
    "I think this passage , for example, is refering to wilful sin or a committment to intentionally sin. You are inclined to disagree I guess."

    This essentially amounts to inserting "willful" or "commitment to intentionally" in front of each reference to "sin" with no citations of the surrounding text to support that that was the intent of the author. It in effect attempts to solve the contradictions by altering the text and ignores what is explicitly stated.
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