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Originally posted by jaywill[/b]The passages you cite from "1 John" do not speak to whether or not one who is "born of God" can sin which is the topic of this thread. The passage I cited explicitly states that he cannot. Nothing you posted comes close to refuting this and only sidesteps the issue.
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Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
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And the very same author in the very same book teaches us this:
"My little children I write these things to that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate nd more time in the realm of that sinlesss [b]"WHATSOEVER"
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Originally posted by galveston75If you have something to say about the topic of this thread just post it.
I know where this will go as I've asked you this before and you never answered.....But do you sin or not? All I want is yes or no....if you can possibly do that.
Your question is irrelevant to the topic.
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOnewhat is it about looking at a verse in its immediate context you do not understand? Jaywill has shown that your assertions are meaningless, simply by looking at the context of the verse and drawing well founded conclusions from it.
The passages you cite from "1 John" do not speak to whether or not one who is "born of God" or can sin which is the topic of this thread. The passage I cited explicitly states that he cannot. Nothing you posted comes close to refuting this and only sidesteps the issue.[/b]
Originally posted by robbie carrobie"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him...Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
what is it about looking at a verse in its immediate context you do not understand? Jaywill has shown that your assertions are meaningless, simply by looking at the context of the verse and drawing well founded conclusions from it.
The passage explicitly states that those who "abide in Him" do not sin and similarly those who are "born of God" cannot sin.
What part of this do YOU not understand?
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOnethe part where you take the verse of context and project your point of view upon it. why have you not addressed anyone of Jaywill rather excellent points, or knightmisters for that matter? i am uninterested in arguing with you think of one, but your point cannot be substantiated in the view of their excellent reasoning. if you want us to give credence to your statement then address the points that they have made.
"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him...Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
The passage explicitly states that those who "abide in Him" do not sin and similarly those who are "born of God" cannot sin.
What part of this do YOU not understand?
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneCorrect, in that it is whosoever in 3:9 and not whatsoever. My error.
The passages you cite from "1 John" do not speak to whether or not one who is "born of God" can sin which is the topic of this thread. The passage I cited explicitly states that he cannot. Nothing you posted comes close to refuting this and only sidesteps the issue.[/b]
I was thinking of 5:4.
The whosoever who has been begotten of God has received the divine seed. And if he lives in the realm of that divine seed he does not practice sin. The seed cannot sin. And to come under the enfluence of the indwelling divine seed causes man to overcome sin.
You cannot seriously take John to mean that the moment a person becomes a Christian begotten of God it is impossible for him to commit a sin. There is nothing in the surrounding passages of 1 John that suggest John is teaching this way.
John says the Christians are liars if they say they do no have sin (1 John 1:8)
John says if we confess we shall be cleansed by the blood (1:9)
John says the Christians have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus the Righteous (2:1)
John warns the Christians to abide in Him, to abide in what they have heard from the beginning "Everyone who abides in Him does not sin .."(3:6)
The exhortations is not that they have become instantaneously unable to sin. The exhortations are conditional - if we abide in Him, in this divine seed, we overcome sin.
John says it has not YET appeared what we shall be (3:2) If the culmination of salvation has occured the moment they were begotten of God then it would ALREADY appear in full maturity. Since they await to see what will be manifested it means they are in the process, they are on the way.
You have no case to twist First John into a teaching of hyper holiness instantaneous maturity.
Furthermore John divides his audience into old men, young men, and children. This obviously indicates different LEVELS of maturity (2:12-19).
He further address the entire audience as little children indicating the need for GROWTH.
The epistle is filled with warnings and exhortations. The epistle is not an annoucement that all Christians have arrived at sinless perfection in which it is impossible for them to have need of confession of errors.
In the same way, the divine SEED cannot sin. The abiding Christian does not practice sin. The abiding Christian overcomes sin and the world because the one in him is greater than the evil one in the world.
The epistle also warns of not letting practical love flow out. How does eternal life abide in you if you see your brother in need and close your heart? John writes.
This is not an epistle accusing all who say they are disciples to give it up and become atheists. It is not a letter so Christians can endlessly accuse one another of not being perfect.
This epistle in your hands is robbed of its edification power and perverted into tool to invalidate the Christian faith. We see you.
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Originally posted by jaywillThe epistle is not an annoucement that all Christians have arrived at sinless perfection in which it is impossible for them to have need of confession of errors.
Correct, in that it is [b]whosoever in 3:9 and not whatsoever. My error.
I was thinking of 5:4.
The whosoever who has been begotten of God has received the divine seed. And if he lives in the realm of that divine seed he does not practice sin. The seed cannot sin. And to come under the enfluence of the indwelling divine seed causes man t f its edification power and perverted into tool to invalidate the Christian faith. We see you.[/b]
I never asserted or even remotely implied that it was.
This is not an epistle accusing all who say they are disciples to give it up and become atheists. It is not a letter so Christians can endlessly accuse one another of not being perfect.
Once again, I never asserted or even remotely implied that it was.
Where do you come up with stuff jaywill?
However, the passage explicitly states that those who "abide in Him" do not sin and similarly those who are "born of God" cannot sin.
Essentially the author is defining what it means to "abide in Him" and who is "born of God". They "do not" and "cannot" sin.
You have not addressed these points in any meaningful way.
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This is not an epistle accusing all who say they are disciples to give it up and become atheists. It is not a letter so Ch not" and "cannot" sin.here is a superlative translation, which carries the real flavour of the verse and is not disposed to using sixteenth centuary archaic language. see if you can spot the difference.
You have not addressed these points in any meaningful way.
(1 John 3:4-9) . . .Everyone who practices sin is also practising lawlessness, and so sin is lawlessness. You know too that that one was made manifest to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Everyone remaining in union with him does not practice sin; no one that practices sin has either seen him or come to know him. Little children, let no one mislead you; he who carries on righteousness is righteous, just as that one is righteous. He who carries on sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, namely, to break up the works of the Devil. Everyone who has been born from God does not carry on sin, because His reproductive seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, because he has been born from God.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHere's Young's Literal Translation which is much closer to the original Greek:
here is a superlative translation, which carries the real flavour of the verse and is not disposed to using sixteenth centuary archaic language. see if you can spot the difference.
(1 John 3:4-9) . . .Everyone who practices sin is also practising lawlessness, and so sin is lawlessness. You know too that that one was made manifest to take away our ...[text shortened]... ductive seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice sin, because he has been born from God.
4 Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness, 5 and ye have known that he was manifested that our sins he may take away, and sin is not in him; 6 every one who is remaining in him doth not sin; every one who is sinning, hath not seen him, nor known him. 7 Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who is doing the righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous, 8 he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; 9 every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.
See if you can spot the difference.
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneyes yes, doing , practising, same thing. doth and hath are archaic!
Here's Young's Literal Translation which is much closer to the original Greek:
4 Every one who is doing the sin, the lawlessness also he doth do, and the sin is the lawlessness, 5 and ye have known that he was manifested that our sins he may take away, and sin is not in him; 6[b] every one who is remaining in him doth not sin; every one who is sinning, h ...[text shortened]... able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.
See if you can spot the difference.[/b]
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOnei must say forsooth thee hath doth bespoken out of context and thee doth not understand thy difference bewtixt he that doth practice sin and he that doth sin involuntarily. hath thou seekth to look at thy context or doth though must avoid it to maketh thy point?
"...[b]he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten."[/b]
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe author of "1 John 3:4-9" made no such distinction.
i must say forsooth thee hath doth bespoken out of context and thee doth not understand thy difference bewtixt he that doth practice sin and he that doth sin involuntarily. hath thou seekth to look at thy context or doth though must avoid it to maketh thy point?
One who is "born of God" is not able to sin, period.
"...he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten."
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOnenope the context has shown that your statement is a fallacious statement, for John speaks of anyone who commits a sin as having a helper, as Jaywill and others have tried to point out to you. Doth it noteth maketh sense? why hath it doth not made sense?
The author of "1 John 3:4-9" made no such distinction.
One who is "born of God" is not able to sin, period.
"...he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten."
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieThose who are "born of God" not only do not sin, but are unable to.
nope the context has shown that your statement is a fallacious statement, for John speaks of anyone who commits a sin as having a helper, as Jaywill and others have tried to point out to you. Doth it noteth maketh sense? why hath it doth not made sense?
A claim for a "helper" for those who do sin, does not change the above.