Originally posted by galveston75Is the reason you haven't presented an attempt at a reconciliation because it is contingent on whether or not I sin? If it is, I'm thinking you're probably not going to be able to provide a rational answer.
So do you sin or not? Still haven't seen an answer....
Originally posted by ThinkOfOnehere is the only official website of Jehovahs witnesses, in the search box one can type in pollution, or littering, environmental pollution etc etc please consider that these are general articles giving principles, they are not designed to make conscience based decisions for you. thus in the case of what one does to tackle the environmental problems that we are facing on a personal level, is a conscience based and thus an individual decision. We are completely a-political and although you shall find references to greenpeace or the world health organisation, we are affiliated with none. here is the address.
Yeah, well, evidently one JW tells at least his sister that it's okay for him to be irresponsible in that way. It didn't ring true to me, so I thought I'd ask. Do you have a JW approved link attesting to a policy of being good stewards of the planet. I'll pass it on to her and maybe she can help to get him straightened out.
You can't be "bothered argui ...[text shortened]... bothered to make post after post of vacuous comments? Interesting place to draw the line.
http://www.watchtower.org/
i have not entered the discussion because i think that Jaywill and knightmeister have given the jist of what i would have said anyway, why repeat it?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"...because he is born of God."
How do you Christians that believe that they can continue to sin and be "of God" reconcile the following into your beliefs? Or do you just pretend that it doesn't exist?
1 John 3:4 -9:
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in hi ...[text shortened]... commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.[/b]
But one must be born of God first. Unless one is born of God one will continue to bear his sin.
Question is, how does one become "born of God"?
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne==================================
[b]The epistle is not an annoucement that all Christians have arrived at sinless perfection in which it is impossible for them to have need of confession of errors.
I never asserted or even remotely implied that it was.
This is not an epistle accusing all who say they are disciples to give it up and become atheists. It is not a letter so Ch not" and "cannot" sin.
You have not addressed these points in any meaningful way.
This is not an epistle accusing all who say they are disciples to give it up and become atheists. It is not a letter so Christians can endlessly accuse one another of not being perfect.
Once again, I never asserted or even remotely implied that it was.
Where do you come up with stuff jaywill?
================================= [/b]
I come up with this opinion by carefully reading what you write here on this Forum.
And until I see you make a more persuasive disclaimer, I'll reserve that view.
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However, the passage explicitly states that those who "abide in Him" do not sin and similarly those who are "born of God" cannot sin.
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That I agree with.
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Essentially the author is defining what it means to "abide in Him" and who is "born of God". They "do not" and "cannot" sin.
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That is a preferencial and biased opinion NOT taking SERIOUSLY other statements made in the same book by the SAME author.
It appears to me to be the view of one not really eager to understand John but to have some other motive.
If you were truly interested to understand John's thought, you should ask:
If John is saying that his audience of regenerated Christians find it impossible to sin then WHY are their exhortations not to ? You do not have to take precautions that a apple tree does not bring forth pears.
Yes, granted, John does rejoice that the one born of God does not and cannot sin. I wouldn't change it if you held a gun up to my head. I am glad he wrote it exactly as he wrote it.
We are in agreement as to what he wrote. In my case, if not in yours, I have to consider WHAT ELSE John wrote.
He is exhorting his audience of believers to ABIDE. If it is AUTOMATIC that they cannot do otherwise, because they are Christians, then what is the purpose for John advizing them to ABIDE ??
Jesus taught the Devil that you do not just listen to what was written. You listen to what also was written (Matt. 3:6,7)
The Devil tempting Jesus to prove His divinity by jumping circus act style from the top of the temple -
"If You are the Son of God, cast Yourself down; for it is written, To His angels He shall give charge concerning You, and on their hands they shall bear You up, lest You strike Your foot against a stone."
Satan quoted the Bible to encourage Jesus that the Scriptures were behind Him to show off a wreckless act.
The subtlety was not lost on Christ who refered Satan to AGAIN ... what else was written in Scripture.
"Jesus said to him, Again, it is writte, You shall not test the Lord your God." (See Matt. 3:6-7)
So we have with you an insistence and a challenge. HOW do Christians, you say, account for the Apostle John's teaching that those born of God do not and cannot commit sin.
Let's give you a benefit of a doubt this time. Let's assume you have raised this issue up umpteen times because it really is a theological problem for you.
Why would you not notice that John is speaking to those who are born again. And if so why would you not notice that he teaches them HOW to deal with their occasional failures and sins.
If his audience is incapable of sinning then why does he teach them about confession and the power of Christ's blood to cleanse them, keeping them in the divine fellowship?
You talk about what I have not addressed. Why don't you talk some about what YOU have not addressed. Will you return with silence and a boast that your challenge is still not yet addressed ? It is that kind of behavior that indicates a destructive motive.
I gave you a long list of samples from the same letter obviously indicating that John's audience needs spiritual growth, exhortation, warning, encouragement. If they have been sinlessly perfected the instant they were born of God, then WHY the need for these ?
Do you want to understand First John or do you want to prove it incosistent ?
Actually, John letter and John's record of Christ's teaching in the Gospel of John are very harmonious.
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You have not addressed these points in any meaningful way.
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Yes I have. This post above is the lattest.
You have not addressed in a meaningful way context and other utterances of the same author in the letter of First John.
And I am SO VERY thankful that he who is born of God does not sin. And I am extremly thankful to God that he cannot sin because he is born of God. I'm born of God. So Praise the Lord.
And thank God that my Righteous Advocate is my effective attorney, not like some accuser, but advbocating for me before the Father.
"if we (WE who are in fellowship with the Father and His Son - 1:3) ... If we confess our sins, He is FAITHFUL and RIGHTEOUS to FORGIVE us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness." (1 John 1:10)
So, the bottom line is, for all those born of God, begotten of God, who have received the divine seed which cannot sin, WE (including John himself) have wonderful provision for our continued GROWTH in the PROCESS ongoing of learning to ABIDE in this new life we have received.
SORRY! Sorry if this takes the wind out of your humanism or your (resurrection ignoring ) approach to the New Testament.
Eeventually in eternity, we (and I certainly invite you to become a part) who have been BEGOTTEN of God will never commit a sin at all. We (and I certainly invite you to join us ToO) will be fully" conformed to the image of His Son ". We will be fully sanctified, transformed, glorified, even deified.
The children will have become full grown sons.
This epistle of First John, like so much else of the New Testament, is concerning the mingling of God and man.
This mingling of God and man is accomplished on one hand by God dispensing His life into man and on the other by man's cooperation.
Utterances like those born of God do not sin and such absolute sentences should not discourage or bother the seeker of God.
They are leaning toward the consummation of a process of God dispensing His life into man. They are emphasizing the culmination, the climax of this process.
If I have been too hard on ToO, I would apologize to him and repent to God. But God will be my examiner.
I do not like to "poison the well" of discussion. This epistle concerns God working His life and nature in Christ into those who have recieved the Divine Seed of a new life in Christ.
To prove that this dispensing is a process we have many indicators. One is here in John's letter:
Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us that sheould be called children of God; ... Beloved, now we are the children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be.
We know that if He is manifested we will be like Him because we will see Him ecebas He is." (See First John 3:1,2)
Let's get a grip on this. The Apostle tells his Christian audience - NOW we are the children of God. So in the present they have an "organic" and family relationship with God. But as to the future - " .. and it has not YET been manifestedwhat we WILL be."
The Christians audience, the blessed "WE" are presently God's childen by the divine rebirth. As to the future the Christians WILL BE like Him, Christ the Son.
So obviously they children of God are on a journey towards maturity. They must growth. There was no and is no instant maturity, instant sinlessness, instant manifestation of the full grown sons of God.
So John exhorts the believers to abide in Christ on the way in thier journey to perfection.
Now listen, they MAY slow the process down. This would not be to their advantage.
They may NOT stop the process.
They may cooperate and be matured. They may not cooperate and only prolong the process.
John does say that if they do NOT abide in Christ there is the danger that when He returns they MAY be put to shame from Him. This is not eternal perdition. But it is being put to shame from Him. We only need to know that it is undesireable.
Do you understand folks? The epistle shows where the believers are going. The epistle exhorts them to continue on the journey. The epistle warns of not cooperating with the process. Details of non-cooperation are given. We only need to know that it is God's primary will to cause the disciple TO arrive.
That is all we need to know if we are believers.
The Divine Seed is actually God Himself. This is about God being implanted into people. If they abide in that realm they overcome the world. They overcome sinning.
John was considerably mature. John is not saying "just me and no one else". He is nourishing and shepherding the "children" to continue on the journey.
It is not that hard folks. Read it prayerfully and let it inspire faith. Even if you are not a Christian, ask God to give you the divine birth with the divine SEED. And learn day by day how to abide in that realm of the indwelling presence of the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
Join us.
Correcting a few typos:
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To prove that this dispensing is a process we have many indicators. One is here in John's letter:
Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us that [we should] be called children of God; ... Beloved, now we are the children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be.
We know that if He is manifested we will be like Him because we will see Him [even as] He is." (See First John 3:1,2)
Let's get a grip on this. The Apostle tells his Christian audience - NOW we are the children of God. So in the present they have an "organic" and family relationship with God. But as to the future - " .. and it has not YET been manifested what we WILL be."
The Christians audience, the blessed "WE" are presently God's childen by the divine rebirth. As to the future the Christians WILL BE like Him, Christ the Son.
So obviously they children of God are on a journey towards maturity. They must growth. There was no and is no instant maturity, instant sinlessness, instant manifestation of the full grown sons of God.
So John exhorts the believers to abide in Christ on the way in thier journey to perfection.
Now listen, they MAY slow the process down. This would not be to their advantage.
They may NOT stop the process.
They may cooperate and be matured. They may not cooperate and only prolong the process.
John does say that if they do NOT abide in Christ there is the danger that when He returns they MAY be put to shame from Him. This is not eternal perdition. But it is being put to shame from Him. We only need to know that it is undesireable.
Do you understand folks? The epistle shows where the believers are going. The epistle exhorts them to continue on the journey. The epistle warns of not cooperating with the process. Details of non-cooperation are [not] given [here]. We only need to know that it is God's primary will to cause the disciple TO arrive.
That is all we need to know if we are believers.
The Divine Seed is actually God Himself. This is about God being implanted into people. If they abide in that realm they overcome the world. They overcome sinning.
John was considerably mature. John is not saying "just me and no one else". He is nourishing and shepherding the "children" to continue on the journey.
It is not that hard folks. Read it prayerfully and let it inspire faith. Even if you are not a Christian, ask God to give you the divine birth with the divine SEED. And learn day by day how to abide in that realm of the indwelling presence of the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
Join us.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou spoke so strongly for being good stewards, I thought you might be able to point to a link. Thanks anyway.
here is the only official website of Jehovahs witnesses, in the search box one can type in pollution, or littering, environmental pollution etc etc please consider that these are general articles giving principles, they are not designed to make conscience based decisions for you. thus in the case of what one does to tackle the environmental problem ...[text shortened]... t Jaywill and knightmeister have given the jist of what i would have said anyway, why repeat it?
Originally posted by josephwCan you elaborate on what you're trying to say here? Just plainly state what you have to say.
[b]"...because he is born of God."
But one must be born of God first. Unless one is born of God one will continue to bear his sin.
Question is, how does one become "born of God"?[/b]
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]If John is saying that his audience of regenerated Christians find it impossible to sin then WHY are their exhortations not to ? You do not have to take precautions that a apple tree does not bring forth pears.
[b]==================================
This is not an epistle accusing all who say they are disciples to give it up and become atheists. It is not a letter so Christians can endlessly accuse one another of not being perfect.
Once again, I never asserted or even remotely implied that it was.
Where do you come up with stuff jaywill?
============= even deified.
The children will have become full grown sons.
Yes, granted, John does rejoice that the one born of God does not and cannot sin. I wouldn't change it if you held a gun up to my head. I am glad he wrote it exactly as he wrote it.
We are in agreement as to what he wrote. In my case, if not in yours, I have to consider WHAT ELSE John wrote.
He is exhorting his audience of believers to ABIDE. If it is AUTOMATIC that they cannot do otherwise, because they are Christians, then what is the purpose for John advizing them to ABIDE ??
I never said that it is "automatic". Evidently in his audience there at those who continue to sin that are not yet "born of God". You said that you agree that one who is "born of God does not and cannot sin." Therefore, those who continue to sin cannot yet be "born of God". Those who are not yet "born of God" are exhorted to try to get there. By the same token, those who continue to sin cannot yet "abide in Him".