10 commandments

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
How about if I give you an example? Many Christians believe it impossible for any human to stop committing sin. From what I can tell, this is rooted in the teachings of Paul. So far as I know, Jesus never taught this. In fact, He taught the opposite here:

John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My ...[text shortened]... the son does remain forever. “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

John 8:32-36 is a Christian teaching.

You also seem to misunderstand the original sin doctrine, which is quite different from being impossible for any human to stop committing sin.

Originally posted by Palynka
John 8:32-36 is a Christian teaching.

You also seem to misunderstand the original sin doctrine, which is quite different from being impossible for any human to stop committing sin.

You seem to misunderstand what I'm saying.

Once again, "Many Christians believe it impossible for any human to stop committing sin. From what I can tell, this is rooted in the teachings of Paul." The Christians who believe this do so because they have been taught this as part of their indoctrination into Christianity. Therefore this is a Christian teaching that does not coincide with the teachings of Jesus. From what I gather, they have been taught to discount John 8:32-36 in various ways. For example, one poster on this forum insists that when Jesus says, "The truth will make you free", He is speaking of "freedom from the penalty of sin" rather than "freedom from committing sin".

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You seem to misunderstand what I'm saying.

Once again, "Many Christians believe it impossible for any human to stop committing sin. From what I can tell, this is rooted in the teachings of Paul." The Christians who believe this do so because they have been taught this as part of their indoctrination into Christianity. Therefore this is a Christian teac peaking of "freedom from the penalty of sin" rather than "freedom from committing sin".

I read it the first time. Thanks for the repetition. 😵

I'll leave you to your windmills.

Originally posted by Palynka
I read it the first time. Thanks for the repetition. 😵

I'll leave you to your windmills.

Listen, you can be a wiseguy or you can actually take the time to comprehend what I've written. Clearly my latest post to you offered you additional explanation as to how the beliefs of those Christians based on Christian teachings differ from what Jesus taught in John 8:32-36.

For you to dismiss the whole thing as "repetition" is intellectually dishonest.

I imagine that if you had something intelligent to say about the germane points of my posts you would have, instead of just making snide vacuous remarks.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Listen, you can be a wiseguy or you can actually take the time to comprehend what I've written. Clearly my latest post to you offered you additional explanation as to how the beliefs of those Christians based on Christian teachings differ from what Jesus taught in John 8:32-36.

For you to dismiss the whole thing as "repetition" is intellectually disho ...[text shortened]... the germane points of my posts you would have, instead of just making snide vacuous remarks.

I did say something. If you chose to address what I wrote instead of just repeating yourself, I'll be happy to continue.

Because if you don't, then there's no point.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I hate 'em. Do not this and do not do that.

I like the eight noble truths of bhuddism better. Its all about right action and positivity rather than telling you what you cant do and saying that God said it.

I feel no connection with negatives.

"I hate 'em". "I feel no connection with negatives."

Hate is a negative feeling.

You have a long way to go.

Originally posted by Palynka
I did say something. If you chose to address what I wrote instead of just repeating yourself, I'll be happy to continue.

Because if you don't, then there's no point.

Well, I have to believe that you're just messing with me. No one's that dim.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]Then, when they break a rule, all they have to do is ask forgiveness and all if well and they can still go to heaven.

This is an example of something that Jesus did not teach.

The absolute minimum requirement for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation" according to the teachings of Jesus: One must become righteous, i.e., one must become one with God, one must follow the will of God, one cannot continue to commit sin, etc.[/b]

Aaaah...you come to the crux of the matter.... it is not what was taught...

However, what was taught then, what is taught now and what is actually practiced are three different things. There are some core teachings and beliefs in the Bible, both new and old testaments that are good by which to live. The same can be said for Islamic teachings, Buddist teachings, Taoist teachings and every other belief there is. What a religion teaches, what is written, what is interpreted, what is taught, what is learned and what is practiced are all diffferent and dependent on the individual.

I would bet a years salary that you could go to a church, mosque, etc on a particular day and ask ten different people about what was taught there and you would get ten different answers.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Basically I interpret that as "Because I'm not a christian I cant possibly see the real truth", which is really self-righteous and short-sighted.
I've no doubt that you can see the truth of your own life , so why do you doubt that I cant sse the truth of my own life?
Do you know something that I dont? (And I do know all about Jesus and what he is supposed to do/represent for us)

What I said had nothing to do with being a Christian or not, truth due to feelings
or desires isn't truth it is feelings and desires.
Kelly

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
How about if I give you an example? Many Christians believe it impossible for any human to stop committing sin. From what I can tell, this is rooted in the teachings of Paul. So far as I know, Jesus never taught this. In fact, He taught the opposite here:

John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My ...[text shortened]... the son does remain forever. “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

I am going to cut and paste the entire chapter here so that everyone can read it in context, y comments will follow in the ensuing post


John 8 (New International Version)

John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

The Validity of Jesus' Testimony
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."

14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"

"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

21Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."

22This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"

23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[a] you will indeed die in your sins."

25"Who are you?" they asked.

"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. 26"I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."

27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.

The Children of Abraham
31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"

34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.[c]"

39"Abraham is our father," they answered.

"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[d] do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

The Children of the Devil
42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
The Claims of Jesus About Himself
48The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
49"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

52At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Originally posted by duecer
I am going to cut and paste the entire chapter here so that everyone can read it in context, y comments will follow in the ensuing post


John 8 (New International Version)

John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teache ...[text shortened]... ple grounds.

Deuce, maybe you can highlight this for me.

Is John 8 a Christian teaching? If yes, how can ToO claim that John 8 contradicts Christian teachings?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You seem to misunderstand what I'm saying.

Once again, "Many Christians believe it impossible for any human to stop committing sin. From what I can tell, this is rooted in the teachings of Paul." The Christians who believe this do so because they have been taught this as part of their indoctrination into Christianity. Therefore this is a Christian teac peaking of "freedom from the penalty of sin" rather than "freedom from committing sin".

Its important to read the entire passage as a whole, because it sheds light on the truer meanings of Christ's teachings. For example verse 15: You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. Christ came not to condemn the world but to save it. Too many Christians are stuck in a kind of old testament legalism, thinking that their good behavior will save them, when clearly that is not the case.

Hebrews 10 (a wonderful work of apologetics) says that Jesus is the fulfillment of Levitical law, and that God will write his law in our hearts and minds. In other words we know instintively the difference between right and wrong, and more likely to act accordingly. Fear of damnation will not stop people from sinning, it never has and it never will; but love and respect does have that power.

As a Christian we are taught that we are bound by the spirit and not by the law. The law has no power to save a soul.

Originally posted by Palynka
Deuce, maybe you can highlight this for me.

Is John 8 a Christian teaching? If yes, how can ToO claim that John 8 contradicts Christian teachings?

Yes it is an important teaching, and it should be taught in context to the whole and not seperately

eidt: an interesting parallel to this is the Hindu idea of duty and Karmic Yoga. One must strive for the ideal outcome, but be content with whatever happens. In Christian terms: we are to strive to live free of sin, but don't beat yourself up over making a mistake.

Originally posted by duecer
Its important to read the entire passage as a whole, because it sheds light on the truer meanings of Christ's teachings. For example verse 15: You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. Christ came not to condemn the world but to save it. Too many Christians are stuck in a kind of old testament legalism, thinking that their good behavior will s ...[text shortened]... taught that we are bound by the spirit and not by the law. The law has no power to save a soul.

I'm not sure of what point you're trying to make and how it relates to my post. I don't see how your post addresses what Jesus taught in John 8:32-36. Can you speak to that passage directly?

Your reference to Hebrews 10 seems to be an example of what I was talking about when I said:

There is a distinction to be made between the teachings of Jesus and what Christianity teaches. The beliefs of the vast majority of Christians are not only informed but superceded by the teachings of others. Christianity transitioned from the religion OF Jesus to a religion ABOUT Jesus early in its history.

It also seems that you've taken John 8:15 out of context. Look at what it says in context:

12Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” 13So the Pharisees said to Him, “You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true.” 14Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15“You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone. 16“But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me. 17“Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true. 18“I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me.”

Jesus is essentially saying that His testimony is true since He and God testify the same and that His judgment is true since He and God judge the same. Basically that He and God are One.

Originally posted by KellyJay
What I said had nothing to do with being a Christian or not, truth due to feelings
or desires isn't truth it is feelings and desires.
Kelly

Yes, I like to pontificate the truth as well however it remains my opinion.