3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle...

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Your answer didn't surprise me. In fact I could've written it for you.
Its such a shame that so many christians repeatedly announce that we cannot 'defeat satan' and that only christ can win,etc.
You're not even in the right ballpark. you contstantly separate yourself from God.
Not to say there is no merit in your arguement, but I think God wants us oes he require cheerleaders or something? Sheeesh
Bhuddism is so much more logical to me.

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Your answer didn't surprise me. In fact I could've written it for you.
=============================

No, I don't think you could have.

I think you are one of the people that the less you read the New Testament the more you consider yourself an expert on it.

Its a curious phenomenon.

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Its such a shame that so many christians repeatedly announce that we cannot 'defeat satan' and that only christ can win,etc.
=============================

There is no shame. It is glorious to be identified with Christ the Victor. The more we allow Him to subdue us the more powerful we become in Him.

Paul writes to the Christians in Rome - "Not the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you." (Rom. 16:20)

I have seen thousands of incidents where the old man infested with the Satanic nature was annulled and conquered by those who walk in the Spirit of the resurrected Christ.

One day the scales will tip and we'll bring Jesus back to this earth. I do hope to be among those to witness such a thing.


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You're not even in the right ballpark.
=========================

I am not in the Buddhist ballpark. And I do not claim to know a lot about Buddhism. Though at one time I did practice Zen meditation and read Allen Watts. I almost went off to Japan to be a serious adherent of Zen Buddhism.

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you contstantly separate yourself from God.
==============================

No I do not. Since a person receives Christ the Spirit of God becomes "one spirit" with the human spirit -

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" ( 1 Cor. 6:17)

This means that my human spirit and the divine eternal Spirit who is the Triune God have become one, mingled and united spirit. Part of my being is God.

But I do have to cooperate with that oneness because part of my being is Satanified.

I think you are using standard arguments that you have employed in the past. How could the Christian not be one with God in a most intimate sense somewhere in her being when the Bible makes these promises:

"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

The Triune God has come to make an abode with the lover of Christ. How then can we say that the believers in not one with God in some sense ?

Paul's last words to his co-worker Timothy were about this oneness - "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you" (2 Tim. 4:22)

You know that last words of a person are often most significant. These last written words of the apostle Paul are to remind Timothy never to forget that he has an "organic" union with the Triune God. The Lord Jesus Christ is with his spirit.

But it is a fact that the Christian never graduates from the need to be in cooperation with that oneness.

Notice here that Paul says that he longed for the believers in Philippi not in his own inward parts but in the inward parts of Jesus Christ -

"For God is my witness how I long after you all in the inward parts of Christ Jesus." (Phil.1:8)

Our brother Paul experienced this oneness with God to a great degree. Even in his deepest affections Christ's inner being was mingled with Paul's inner being. He longed for the brothers and sisters "in the inward parts of Christ Jesus". He walked in oneness with God.

I seek to walk in such oneness also for it is the normal Christian life.

We are actually becoming God in life and in nature but not in His Godhead. You see God became a man so that man might become God, in life and in nature but not in the Godhead.

The communicable attributes of God He intends to work into the beings of everyone who is saved in Christ. Our brother Paul wrote "For me to live is Christ" . This can only be because of a oneness of God and man.

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Not to say there is no merit in your arguement, but I think God wants us to reunite with Her, and all actions start with our thoughts.
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In the passage I proved that in the intimate innermost parts of Paul he had become Jesus Christ. This was Christ dispensed into Paul. This was actually Christ living upon the earth again, this time in Paul.

And concerning every thought ? Is this what you mean ?

"As we overthrow reasonings and every high thing rising up against the knowledge of God, and take captive every thought unto the obedience of Christ." ( 2 Cor. 10:5)

Is that kind of what you're talking about ? That is bringing "every thought" captive to the obedience of Christ.

This taking hold of the mind by God ? Is this kind of what you are refering to?

"And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect." (Rom. 12:2)

There are a many number of passages showing the gaining of man's mind by the Spirit of Jesus Who is today the Spirit of God Himself.

I'll have to continue latter.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=======================================
Your answer didn't surprise me. In fact I could've written it for you.
=============================

No, I don't think you could have.

I think you are one of the people that the less you read the New Testament the more you consider yourself an expert on it.

Its a curio ...[text shortened]... he Spirit of God Himself.

I'll have to continue latter.[/b]

You're alright ,jaywill.
You strike me as one who will not change, and like I said if it works dont change it.
I can see merit in all the quotes you have proffered. And yet there are flaws in your arguement.
I still dont see how you can reconcile self responsibility and those that leave that responsibility to God (or Jesus). That power-steering can cause accidents more easily.
I'm not in a bhuddist ballpark, although I do like the flavour.
I still think your spiel reeks of separation from God, and thats sort of what I'm getting at with the term 'ballpark'.
As for accounting for my sins I only think of one. Eclipsing God. I do think if I were to live a perfect life now my past sins would be of no consequence.
Anyway thats just a couple of points. Take your time.

The serpent and Satan......http://www.watchtower.org/e/20051115/article_02.htm

Originally posted by karoly aczel
You're alright ,jaywill.
You strike me as one who will not change, and like I said if it works dont change it.
I can see merit in all the quotes you have proffered. And yet there are flaws in your arguement.
I still dont see how you can reconcile self responsibility and those that leave that responsibility to God (or Jesus). That power-steering can ...[text shortened]... st sins would be of no consequence.
Anyway thats just a couple of points. Take your time.

You don't believe in man and God having a relationship now in this life?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You don't believe in man and God having a relationship now in this life?
Kelly

What makes you say that? Yes . I believe its possible to have a relationship with God in this life, I'm just not a Christian is'all

Originally posted by karoly aczel
You're alright ,jaywill.
You strike me as one who will not change, and like I said if it works dont change it.
I can see merit in all the quotes you have proffered. And yet there are flaws in your arguement.
I still dont see how you can reconcile self responsibility and those that leave that responsibility to God (or Jesus). That power-steering can st sins would be of no consequence.
Anyway thats just a couple of points. Take your time.

==============================
You're alright ,jaywill.
You strike me as one who will not change, and like I said if it works dont change it.
I can see merit in all the quotes you have proffered. And yet there are flaws in your arguement.
=============================

It is not unlikely that if you point out a real flaw in what I explained, and I recognize the limitations of what I wrote, I will admit it. I have no problem admiting that as a teacher I have my limitations.

Where's the flaws ?


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I still dont see how you can reconcile self responsibility and those that leave that responsibility to God (or Jesus). That power-steering can cause accidents more easily.
============================================

The power steering was an analogy and I warned of its limitations already.

What you should realize is that the man Jesus Christ at the right hand of God in the heavens distributes Himself into millions of people. He has been made a divine life giving Spirit - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

God dispenses this Person into people today that they may live in union with Christ. So in the book of Romans Jesus is in two places:

1.) He is at the right hand of God interceding for the believers - "Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, who also intercedes for us." (Rom. 8:34).

2.) He is within the Christians - "But if CHRIST IS IN YOU, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness." (Rom. 8:10)

There is a Man on a throne somewhere "at the right hand of God". And at the same time this Man as "a life giving Spirit" has been dispensed into those who receive Him into their innermost being - "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27)

My oneness with God is accomplished in stages. At this stage it is the Christ dispensed into my being. And the New Testament is emphatic that this Spirit is Christ Himself - "Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)

When we stand upon this truth and proclaim it and praise God for it it transforms our lives. So the apostle wanted the Christians to realize that Jesus Christ Himself was in them = "Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved." (2 Cor. 13:5)

There are plenty of indications that having Jesus Christ live in me is something to which I am responsible to God for.

You will have no case that the indwelling Christ in the regenerated man makes him not responsible. You have no case to accuse the Christians Gospel of advocating no responsibility in the Christian's behavior.

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I'm not in a bhuddist ballpark, although I do like the flavour.
I still think your spiel reeks of separation from God, and thats sort of what I'm getting at with the term 'ballpark'.
=================================

In this age the saved are undergoing the process of the dispensing of God into them. He regenerates their innermost human spirit. He then spreads out into their soul. The end is His life bursting out into the body and swallowing up our mortality with His divine life.

The dispensing of the Triune God into man is for the producing of the mingling of God and man.

What I wrote "reeks" with the salvation of God dispensing His life and nature into His redeemed people to make God and man one entity. This is a process.

But I already told you that one part of my being is God - "He who is JOINED to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17).

What was previously TWO spirits - my human spirit and the Holy Spirit which is God Himself, how now become "one spirit". They are mingled together.

The word "mingle" means to combine two or more things together so that they remain distinguishable in the combination. It is a rather special word discribing a union in which there is not confusion. The Holy Spirit of God is "one spirit" with my created human spirit. Yet they two remain distinguishable in the combination.

This mingling of God and man is the eternal purpose of God from the beginning. Sin is the main thing which separates God and man. But Christ has dealt with that problem that we might be saved - mingled wth God to the uttermost.


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As for accounting for my sins I only think of one. Eclipsing God. I do think if I were to live a perfect life now my past sins would be of no consequence.
Anyway thats just a couple of points. Take your time.
===================================

It is easy for us humans to:

1.) Underestimate the righteousness of God.
2.) Underestimate the seriousness of our unrighteousness before God.

It is easy for us to under appreciate:

1.) The trouble God had to go through to reconcile us to Himself.
2.) The total degree to which we are reconciled.

It is easy for us to:

1.) Compare ourselves to one another and think we are not too bad as someone else.

2.) Forget the fact that we are being compared to Jesus Christ. And He is perfect.

It is easy for us to not realize that Jesus was not simply good. He was glorious. The Bible says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Christ is not simply right and good. He is gloriously right and good. We are not only filthy. We have no splendour and no radiant moral glory.

It is easy for us sinners to not realize that if we have to answer to this eternal holy God for one sin we will never make it. Even our tears and prayers have to be washed in the blood of Jesus.

It is easy for us to not realize that God only wants one thing - His Son. This is all we can bring to God. So we need His blood to cleanse us and we need His life to saturate us. And we need to be clothed in Him and bring the Son to God as our only worship and our only living.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
What makes you say that? Yes . I believe its possible to have a relationship with God in this life, I'm just not a Christian is'all

How would one go about having a relationship with God in your point of
view?
Kelly

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]==============================
You're alright ,jaywill.
You strike me as one who will not change, and like I said if it works dont change it.
I can see merit in all the quotes you have proffered. And yet there are flaws in your arguement.
=============================

It is not unlikely that if you point out a real flaw in what I e ...[text shortened]... d bring the Son to God as our only worship and our only living.[/b]

I think the major flaw on your arguement is that only a relationship with Jesus can 'save' us.
Otherwise , if one follows your logic,(and leaps of faith), your arguements are perfectly well measured,imo.
I like your approach to christianity, but I just dont live like that.

Interestingly,I too wanted to go to a zen monastary when I was younger,(15 years ago). I sort of just went there in my mind and realized my purpose on Earth was right where I was. I continued from there and made many mistakes. But I did learn. My faith is growing...but not in Jesus. But he's cool and all. Surely a prime example of how to live a completely virtous life.

Originally posted by KellyJay
How would one go about having a relationship with God in your point of
view?
Kelly

There would be a number of ways. I would just stress that once you have made up your mind, stick to your decisions. In all their glory or failure, for satori is never luke warm.
One way is to focus (or meditate) on the pit of your stomach, realizing that this is the center of your being and where the connection with Spirit lies. (One chakra above the base chakra). At the same time remind yourself that you are not this body and understand the functioning of human psycology. Bhuddism explains this in much more detail than I. But I am not a Bhuddist.

Thank you for the question, (I will promptly take my attention back to my center)
🙂

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I think the major flaw on your arguement is that only a relationship with Jesus can 'save' us.
Otherwise , if one follows your logic,(and leaps of faith), your arguements are perfectly well measured,imo.
I like your approach to christianity, but I just dont live like that.

Interestingly,I too wanted to go to a zen monastary when I was younger,(15 ...[text shortened]... esus. But he's cool and all. Surely a prime example of how to live a completely virtous life.

...but not in Jesus. But he's cool and all. Surely a prime example of how to live a completely virtous life.
Okay, let's say we define virtuous as morally excellent. Since you don't concede the Lordship of Christ--- something He clearly claimed for Himself--- how can you confer any type of moral excellence on Him? A morally excellent person is not confused about his role in life, nor does he lodge campaigns involving large groups of people for the purpose of announcing remedies for ailments he is unable to cure.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]...but not in Jesus. But he's cool and all. Surely a prime example of how to live a completely virtous life.
Okay, let's say we define virtuous as morally excellent. Since you don't concede the Lordship of Christ--- something He clearly claimed for Himself--- how can you confer any type of moral excellence on Him? A morally excellent perso ...[text shortened]... ge groups of people for the purpose of announcing remedies for ailments he is unable to cure.[/b]

Christ is a Lord. I'm cool with that. A lord of himself,(his own mind), and not a subjagator of people.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
There would be a number of ways. I would just stress that once you have made up your mind, stick to your decisions. In all their glory or failure, for satori is never luke warm.
One way is to focus (or meditate) on the pit of your stomach, realizing that this is the center of your being and where the connection with Spirit lies. (One chakra above the b ...[text shortened]... uddist.

Thank you for the question, (I will promptly take my attention back to my center)
🙂

Okay, so I don't read anything into what you have just said that you did
not intend to say...basically it is all up to us, God does not do anything
or from what you've said, requires anything for us to have a relationship
with Him? The way has been, is, and always will be clear for us to have
a relationship with God?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Okay, so I don't read anything into what you have just said that you did
not intend to say...basically it is all up to us, God does not do anything
or from what you've said, requires anything for us to have a relationship
with Him? The way has been, is, and always will be clear for us to have
a relationship with God?
Kelly

Yeah, in my view its more complicated than that. 'God' influences and guides us. Through coincidences or visions, for example.
But I want to put the onus on the individual at the end of the day.

Having said that,I've seen so many different type of spiritual adherents, and even many different approaches within one religon.
For example I spent some time on a hare krsna farm. Other than all those dudes chanting , (sometimes only in their mind so you cant hear them), they were all so different. Some grew food, some were mechanics, cow tenders,etc.
I find a lot of trouble communicating accurately on this forum, for there are so many little nuances and non-verbal communications that go on when you are with some one in the flesh. But still I enjoy reading all of your views. Really.

I mean the thing is,(imo), we are all God.Or part of God. If you follow this line of thought to its logical conclusion(s) you arrive at a very radically different place than our mundane,everyday reality.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Yeah, in my view its more complicated than that. 'God' influences and guides us. Through coincidences or visions, for example.
But I want to put the onus on the individual at the end of the day.

Having said that,I've seen so many different type of spiritual adherents, and even many different approaches within one religon.
For example I spent some ...[text shortened]... nclusion(s) you arrive at a very radically different place than our mundane,everyday reality.

Then our views are radically different, because I think God, is God, and I am
not. So for me it is not getting my own soul/spirit/whatever you want to call your
spiritual being in balance, it is going to another being and starting up a
relationship with him, with Him being God. In order to do that, I have to do
a few things no differently than I would if I were to try and get to know
anyone else, I have to go to them and get to know them. I cannot do that
by looking in the mirror, or chanting all day long, I actually have to go to
Him, and since it is God I can only do that under the conditions He sets not
the ones I come up with on my own.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Then our views are radically different, because I think God, is God, and I am
not. So for me it is not getting my own soul/spirit/whatever you want to call your
spiritual being in balance, it is going to another being and starting up a
relationship with him, with Him being God. In order to do that, I have to do
a few things no differently than I wou ...[text shortened]... I can only do that under the conditions He sets not
the ones I come up with on my own.
Kelly

I think I understand what you're saying. I dont think our views are so radically different, but that we have come to radically different conclusions about spirituality.
I believe we are born in this life separated from God by a lie. The mother of all lies. And that is that we are separated from God.
We all engage in our own journeys. We all get to God in the end. Whether it be in this lifetime or a future one. For that is the way of all conciossness, to finally realize itself (not Himself).
We certainly have very different orientations about what we consider to be reality.
That is another misunderstanding of the human mind-ie, that we all live in a consencus reality.
What is imporatant here is that we can engage in a debate that is not down-putting. That we wouldn't be violent to eachother. That we may respect our different orientaions and our own personal journeys.
Given these basic conditions, we can truly learn our life lessons. We can live and let live and respect even the slowest paced, most stuck-in-the-mud lives. And realize that we do have something in common. You and me and everybody. We all Love God. Thanks Kelly.