@sonship : on chains and other worlds

Originally posted by FMF
Is it right to "bash" the ideology that claims non-believers are burned for eternity in agony?

I don't care if dive bashes ideologies. Do you have a problem understanding English?

Originally posted by josephw
I don't care if dive bashes ideologies. Do you have a problem understanding English?

English is my native tongue. And ~ in English ~ you appear to be saying BOTH that claiming "non-believers are burned for eternity in agony" is a distortion of the damnation aspect of your ideology AND you are apparently not confronting any Christians who believe and assert explicitly that "non-believers are burned for eternity in agony" is a key part of your Christianity. The issue is not my understanding, the issue is your ambiguous stance on the notion that "non-believers are burned for eternity in agony".

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I don't care how they view wisdom, It is the love of God, the goodness of God that leads man to repentance, not the dread of God.

What is the purpose of "the dread of God" if it cannot extort supposed "love" and if its threat cannot make someone believe something that they simply don't believe?

Originally posted by FMF
What is the purpose of "the dread of God" if it cannot extort supposed "love" and if its threat cannot make someone believe something that they simply don't believe?

Did you dread your wife before you loved her?

Death is forever, no afterlife, other than being resurrected for a short time and then die again by fire.
God has provided a way out. He makes the rules, take it or leave it.

When he created mankind, he knew it was a gamble with free will.
He took a calculated risk of rejection.
He knew some would choose him and some would not.
His desire was love reciprocated through free will, not forced.

Those who reject him are destroyed, same as a potter destroys flawed handiwork.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Death is forever, no afterlife, other than being resurrected for a short time and then die again by fire. God has provided a way out. He makes the rules, take it or leave it.

So I take it you are not claiming there is any legitimate moral content in these "gangster" notions ~ it's just a superstitious 'might is right' thing, am I hearing you right?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Did you dread your wife before you loved her?

My wife ~ whom I love ~ has never threatened to torture me in burning agony forever, if that's what you're getting at.

What is the purpose of "the dread of God" if it doesn't inspire love and doesn't inspire belief ~ which is and has been the case for billions and billions of people?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
His desire was love reciprocated through free will, not forced.

You think the threat of "eternal torment" for not loving Him is not an attempt at coercion?

Originally posted by FMF
So I take it you are not claiming there is any legitimate moral content in these "gangster" notions ~ it's just a superstitious 'might is right' thing, am I hearing you right?

I'm not sure what you are meaning here, but sin has consequences not only later, but here and now.

Originally posted by FMF
You think the threat of "eternal torment" for not loving Him is not an attempt at coercion?

That threat is from religion not God. People are free to burn to ashes if they so choose.

Originally posted by FMF
My wife ~ whom I love ~ has never threatened to torture me in burning agony forever, if that's what you're getting at.

What is the purpose of "the dread of God" if it doesn't inspire love and doesn't inspire belief ~ which is and has been the case for billions and billions of people?

Why do you keep addressing me as someone who believes in eternal torture? Haven't you been reading?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If Revelation were to be understood literally then you might be correct. However, Revelation is a book of symbols.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus C ...[text shortened]... e or tormented.

http://www.thisisyourbible.com/index.php?page=questions&task=show&mediaid=678

Death cannot be literally cast into a lake of fire

I agree that this is pretty abstract - for DEATH to be cast anywhere. However, since Satan is the one who has the authority of death Hebrews 2:14. For Satan to be punished probably equates to Death being cast into the lake of fire.

God has to communicate to mankind these things, many of which are profound, spiritual and somewhat abstract. He also has to convey it in terms which most can understand.

It is established that a lake of fire is a dreadful thing.
it is established that God uses this for punishment.
And it is established that Satan, the one who has the authority of death, is punished,
So in case you still cannot grasp the point, Death and Hades the holding place of the dead, are also now USELESS of God and and discarded in this kind of universal trash can.

Take Death and Hades being thrown in the lake of fire to mean Satan and all that has issued out of his existence will be destroyed along with him.

Hell cannot be literally cast into a lake of fire

Hades is the holding place of souls that have been separated from physical bodies. It issued from the existence and activity of Satan.
Hades being cast into the lake of fire has to mean all pertaining to Satan is discarded with Satan.

The Beast which theoretically could be cast into a lake of fire cannot be understood as a literal beast.

So we start from there and extrapolate up into more abstract matters.
It is not too hard to understand.
I think a person of a 1rst to 3rd grade level education can get the general idea.

I have to stop writing right now.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Why do you keep addressing me as someone who believes in eternal torture? Haven't you been reading?

You propagate a similar notions of might-is-right vengeance for thoughtcrimes which strike me as morally repugnant and far-fetched. if you are telling me I will die when I die and that will be that, then you are telling me nothing new. If you are telling me that you, on the other hand, are for all intents and purposes immortal then you are offering no reason for me to believe you other than that you read something in a book and it has captured your imagination.

Originally posted by FMF
You propagate a similar notions of might-is-right vengeance for thoughtcrimes which strike me as morally repugnant and far-fetched. if you are telling me I will die when I die and that will be that, then you are telling me nothing new. If you are telling me that you, on the other hand, are for all intents and purposes immortal then you are offering no rea ...[text shortened]... o believe you other than that you read something in a book and it has captured your imagination.

If you are telling me that you, on the other hand, are for all intents and purposes immortal then you are offering no reason for me to believe you other than that you read something in a book and it has captured your imagination.

I don't claim to be immortal, I only know that what God has promised he will fulfill. We'll leave it at that, rather than some long drawn out exchange of useless nonsense.

Originally posted by JS357
The RCC refers to itself as the church.

I (a non-theist) have reported on the stated creed of a small 'sect' the Missouri synod of the Lutheran church, and the RCC , with 1.2 billion, both attesting to the belief in eternal punishment, and yet do you find sonship's response still heretical? It is clearly a mainstream opinion, the RCC being what it is, and L ...[text shortened]... ts eternal punishment. One must become a non-Biblical universalist to get past this. Just do it.

The Bible supports eternal punishment? Really?

Well, I suppose if you mean in the way that having your "soul destroyed in hell" is eternal, then I guess so. True, you ain't coming back from that. But that sounds like a "one and done" kinda deal, not really "eternal".

I don't suppose you'd like to clarify your statement?

And no, I didn't have to become a "non-Biblical universalist" to get past it. The Bible never really clearly makes the case for it.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I don't claim to be immortal, I only know that what God has promised he will fulfill.

So you don't believe you will have an afterlife?