@sonship : on chains and other worlds

The word "everlasting" occurs in 26 verses in the New Testament of the KJV.

8 times as everlasting life.

3 times life everlasting.

1 time everlasting consultation.

2 times everlasting fire.

1 everlasting destruction.

1 everlasting punishment.

Look at these two verses.

2 Peter 2:17
These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Jude 1:13
Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Everlasting life is for how long? How long is for ever?

If everlasting life is for ever, and never ends, how long do you suppose everlasting punishment, destruction and fire is?

Just for the record, I did not say that the doctrine of hellfire is unique to LC movement; it is pretty much mainline Christian doctrine.

But it is a doctrine that I reject, due to many reasons that I will not go into again here, but have touched on in my thread on "Is God more cruel than the worst sadist you know?"

What I found to be unique (again, as far as I know) about sonships version is the "chains" and "examples to other worlds" that I have not come across before.

In my thread addressed to sonship on abortion, the scenario of anybody being better of if they had been murdered before they could "decide against Christ" , is again just a symptom of the ridiculousness of this doctrine - even though, I concede- it is tought by most orthodox churches.

Originally posted by josephw
The word "everlasting" occurs in 26 verses in the New Testament of the KJV.

8 times as everlasting life.

3 times life everlasting.

1 time everlasting consultation.

2 times everlasting fire.

1 everlasting destruction.

1 everlasting punishment.

Look at these two verses.

2 Peter 2:17
These are wells without water, cloud ...[text shortened]... r ever, and never ends, how long do you suppose everlasting punishment, destruction and fire is?

I think we have been over this ground before.

A fire can be eternal, without the things being put in it also being eternal.

Destruction does not mean surviving in some form forever. It means destroyed. Gone. Forever.

Death is a punishment.

If you never regain life, this punishment is eternal. You are gone. Forever.

I really am not sure why you and the other 'fire and brimstone' crowd are so keen to believe that God would want people to be tortured for all eternity that you actively look for it in the Bible and contort words to achieve this meaning. It speaks to something really dark inside you IMO.

Death is infinitely preferable to the idea of eternal life spent watching countless billions being tortured for all eternity.

Why on earth would you want to worship such a being?

Originally posted by Rank outsider
I think we have been over this ground before.

A fire can be eternal, without the things being put in it also being eternal.

Destruction does not mean surviving in some form forever. It means destroyed. Gone. Forever.

Death is a punishment.

If you never regain life, this punishment is eternal. You are gone. Forever.

I really am not s ...[text shortened]... illions being tortured for all eternity.

Why on earth would you want to worship such a being?

What's the difference between everlasting life and everlasting punishment?

Both are everlasting. I'm not here promoting the theology of burning in agony. I'm only pointing out that both life and punishment are everlasting. Says so right there in The Book.

"Why on earth would you want to worship such a being?"

Irrelevant to the topic. Fortunately your characterization of God isn't relevant either, and the question is misleading and disingenuous.

The truly disturbing thing is humans thinking a god would put them up on such a high spiritual plane as to make said god so eternally angry at the bad humans it would create such a hell to put those people in to suffer throughout eternity.

WHAT FOR?

This alleged god knew at the start of the universe who would be good and who would be bad so it would never have needed to put up such a cruel concept in the first place.

It just goes to show the central arrogance of humans thinking a god would do that because we ticked it off.

That would be like humans picking out certain ants in an ant colony, get the one that really ticked you off, and start slowly burning them, let them recover and slowly burn it again and again.

Can't you all see just how STUPID a concept that is?

Originally posted by sonhouse
The truly disturbing thing is humans thinking a god would put them up on such a high spiritual plane as to make said god so eternally angry at the bad humans it would create such a hell to put those people in to suffer throughout eternity.

WHAT FOR?

This alleged god knew at the start of the universe who would be good and who would be bad so it would ...[text shortened]... over and slowly burn it again and again.

Can't you all see just how STUPID a concept that is?

"Can't you all see just how STUPID a concept that is?"

Which concept? The one where you misrepresent the Biblical narrative, or are you referring to the truth?

You must mean the truth that there is no God! Because that's the stupidest concept known to man. 😉

Originally posted by divegeester

"...But the lost will glorify Him with their endless woe. They will be hung out in chains of punishment as an example to deter other worlds."

Can you please explain what you mean by this description and who you think the beings on other worlds are, how they will get a view of those hung out in chains, and how people suffering "endless woe" will be a "glorification of God"?

I don't know why it is necessary to say more about this. It seemed clear enough.

But if you insist - Concerning "other worlds" is speculation. My opinion is that there will be people reproducing other people in the millennium and I think even in the eternal age.

My opinion is that God may create other creatures. He says "Behold, I create all things new" and the universe is immense.

Having given you my opinion on this I hasten to underline this is my speculation. Passages which lead me to believe these things I will not go into now.

So, the "other worlds" speculation aside - let's consider the world of Men, angels, and demons that many Bible students clearly see in Scripture.

Isaiah 66:23,24 seems to describe a closing scene into the prophetic future. And the punishment of the rebels of God are there for a display and warning to the inhabitants of that new world.

1.) Isaiah 65:17 speaks of the restoration of Israel and all the things brought in by Christ as the Servant of Jehovah. These things begin in the millennial kingdom and consummate in the new heaven and new earth.

"For I am now creating new heavens and a new earth, And the former thing will not be remembered, Nor will theu come up in the heart. But rejoice ad exult forever in what I create..." (65:17,18)

2.) In 66:22 the new heaven and new earth are mentioned again, this time with reference to the spectacle of past rebels being punished forever -

"For as the new heavens and new earth, which I make remain before Me, declares Jehovah, so will your seed and your name remain.

And from new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath all flesh will come to bow down before Me, says Jehovah.

And they will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; For their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa. 66:22-24)

Since I began to read the Bible, this passage strikes me as God allowing the sight of the eternal judgment of the followers of Satan all the way, to become an example of failed revolt against God Almighty.

Even if the physics of the matter or the puzzle of "everlasting" worms causes us pause, the general import of the vision is hard to misunderstand.

"Then they will go forth ..." . That is the people enjoying the blessings of the new heaven and new earth.

"Then they will go forth and look ..." .

What is there to explain? People will go forth and observe something dreadful of God's judgment. Is the spectacle for a season or forever?
The words strongly imply the spectacle remains from then on.

" ... look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; For their worm will not die, Nor will the fire be quenched ..."

Even giving ground to possible symbolism, the thrust of the passage is clear. Perpetually, "their" suffering will be a testimony of the eternal judgment against God's enemies.

The phrase "new heaven and new earth" is picked up by the Apostle Peter in describing a new universe in which righteousness dwells.

"Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are to be dissolved.

But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." (2 Peter. 3:12,13)

It must be that in the "new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells" a spectacle of all of God's defeated enemies who threw their lot in with Satan, are displayed for warning and for God's glorious vindication.

And the "new heavens and new earth" are mentioned again by the Apostle John -

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more. And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev. 21:1,2)

So on the positive side, we see a people so sanctified, transformed, glorified, and conformed to Jesus Christ that collectlive they form a "city" to match Him and correspond to Him as a kind of romantic partner forever.

And on the negative side there are those "outside" the city in a place of everlasting punishment -

"Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and makes a lie. I Jesus have sne My angel to testify to you these things for the churches ..." (Rev. 22:15,16)

Now I don't believe this means there is no blessed realm of the peoples who continue to be born and live in the new universe. I believe "outside" means a.) such sins will never be a part of God's consummate salvation. b.) the lake of fire will contain the lost.

We are today in the church age - the age of grace.
Following this age will be the age of the millennial kingdom.
Following that will be "a little while" (Rev. 20:3) the length of which no one knows. In this "little while" Satan still has some usefulness to God to be let loosed from his thousand year prison.

"And cast him [Satan] into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little while." (20:3)

After this "little while" Satan goes into the lake of fire and the new heaven and new earth is created.

My point in mentioning this is that though I do not know how long it will take ( the remainder of this age + 1,000 years + "a little while" of ? duration ) for the ultimate terminal point of no return to come for those lost forever, it WILL come.

So we need salvation in Jesus Christ for the eternal enjoyment of the New Jerusalem and the new universe to come. When we are born again, one part of our being is already entered into and enjoying as a foretaste that wonderful consummation.

I could write more. That is enough now.

Originally posted by JS357
Nonetheless, from the above RCC citation, "Hence, beyond the possibility of doubt, the Church expressly teaches the eternity of the pains of hell as a truth of faith which no one can deny or call in question without manifest heresy." SO get over it, is the message.

Not "the church", the RCC.

Originally posted by sonship
It seemed clear enough. But if you insist - Concerning "other worlds" is speculation.

Because it is your "speculation" is why it requires explanation; I would have thought that was obvious.

As it is complete fruit loop error is why I think I've read enough of your "speculation" to able to pretty much write off your opinions on biblical scripture sonship.

Thanks.

Originally posted by divegeester
Not "the church", the RCC.

The RCC refers to itself as the church.

I (a non-theist) have reported on the stated creed of a small 'sect' the Missouri synod of the Lutheran church, and the RCC , with 1.2 billion, both attesting to the belief in eternal punishment, and yet do you find sonship's response still heretical? It is clearly a mainstream opinion, the RCC being what it is, and Luther being easily arguably the first protestant. It seems simple and clear, the Bible supports eternal punishment. One must become a non-Biblical universalist to get past this. Just do it.

Originally posted by JS357
The RCC refers to itself as the church.

I (a non-theist) have reported on the stated creed of a small 'sect' the Missouri synod of the Lutheran church, and the RCC , with 1.2 billion, both attesting to the belief in eternal punishment, and yet do you find sonship's response still heretical? It is clearly a mainstream opinion, the RCC being what it is, and L ...[text shortened]... ts eternal punishment. One must become a non-Biblical universalist to get past this. Just do it.

I hold few of the teaching of the RCC nor the Anglican Church in any credibility.
When it comes to extreme church doctrine I also find the burning of witches to be heretical for example. I'm surprised you are asking me this after all I've posted on this topic. Perhaps then as you feel the doctrine of eternal suffering endemic in the the Christian church (and I think you may be right), you can better understand me as the "heretic" when I say that the doctrine of eternal suffering is heretical, morally reprehensible and damaging to the gospel.

I also find sonship's speculation about those cast eternal suffering being "hung in chains of punishment as a warning to other worlds" to be be heretical and actually quite cult-like.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] [b]"...But the lost will glorify Him with their endless woe. They will be hung out in chains of punishment as an example to deter other worlds."

Can you please explain what you mean by this description and who you think the beings on other worlds are, how they will get a view of those hung out in chains, and how people suffering "endless woe ...[text shortened]... oying as a foretaste that wonderful consummation.

I could write more. That is enough now.[/b]

Finally got time to read through all this and it's just more text dump from you as none of it supports your claim:

"...But the lost will glorify Him with their endless woe. They will be hung out in chains of punishment as an example to deter other worlds."

I find it absolutely astonishing that no other Christian here (other than CalJust) will either call you or support you on this. Perhaps they don't realise the horrific moral landslide you are accusing our God of.

Perhaps they have not heard of other morally corrupt homicidal despots who did similar atrocities such as Vlad the Impaler who stuck thousands of his enemies through the anus and watched while they slide down the stake alive; he even dined in among their anguish. This was a "warning" to his enemies, the "other worlds" of your space aliens scenario.

I am truly appalled at your thinking this will "glorify god".

Originally posted by josephw
What's the difference between everlasting life and everlasting punishment?

Both are everlasting. I'm not here promoting the theology of burning in agony. I'm only pointing out that both life and punishment are everlasting. Says so right there in The Book.

[b]"Why on earth would you want to worship such a being?"

Irrelevant to the topic. Fortunat ...[text shortened]... characterization of God isn't relevant either, and the question is misleading and disingenuous.[/b]

I don't think know what misleading and disingenuous means.

The question is not misleading, as you have created a belief system that means you are worshiping something that purports to be good but is in fact they most evil thing to have ever existed. When you come across such a contradiction, you should question the whole basis of your thinking, not try and actively find quotes to support it.

As for being disingenuous, I really don't undertand this. I cannot fathom why you would want to worship a being that, in your own words, glorifies in the suffering of others. It is a deeply sick concept.

Eternal punishment of countless billions to glorify God. And you worhsip this, and search the Bible to find texts to prove this is true?

I haven't characterised any of this. It is just a statement of your beliefs.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
I cannot fathom why you would want to worship a being that, in your own words, glorifies in the suffering of others. It is a deeply sick concept. Eternal punishment of countless billions to glorify God.

...and as vengeance for thoughtcrime.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
I don't think know what misleading and disingenuous means.

The question is not misleading, as you have created a belief system that means you are worshiping something that purports to be good but is in fact they most evil thing to have ever existed. When you come across such a contradiction, you should question the whole basis of your thinking, not ...[text shortened]... e this is true?

I haven't characterised any of this. It is just a statement of your beliefs.

I am increasing being chastised by the Christians here for standing up against this reprehensible doctrine; Joseph being one of them. He along with lemon lime in particular, seem to think I'm not a Christian because I challenge others on what they believe about eternal suffering.

I am a theist, a Christian, I maintain an adherence to the Christian principles laid down in scripture. I struggle to understand why me challenging other people for what I believe are horrible errors should result in me being called out as not being Christian.