@sonship: The trinity doctrine and salvation

Originally posted by Eladar
Maybe you can point me to the scripture that says God made the angel Jesus.

Sure,
(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the .....firstborn..... of all creation;
also consider:
(Hebrews 1:1-4) Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

so, after Jesus gave his life for us he was promoted to a better than angel position.
Before that he was an angel.
That is what he was created as.

Originally posted by roigam
Sure,
(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the .....firstborn..... of all creation;
also consider:
(Hebrews 1:1-4) Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom ...[text shortened]... to a better than angel position.
Before that he was an angel.
That is what he was created as.

Precisely .. Jesus was an angel. Those two passages proves that conclusively.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Precisely .. Jesus was an angel. Those two passages proves that conclusively.

Funny how the scripture never actually says Jesus was an angel. It is just that you decide that's what it means.

Jesus took on a human form and therefore took on the form of a created being. As humans were are all created in the image of God. 1 Colossians could simply be saying Jesus took on the form of a human.

As for Hebrews...

Let's look at verse 5

For to which of the angels did God ever say,


“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”[a]?

Your answer obviously to Jesus, but the scripture does not say to which other angel...

Funny how both JW and Mormons tie Jesus to Satan and say that there is no real difference between the two, other than how God treated them.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So why do you reject the divinity of the Holy Spirit?

I don't.

Originally posted by roigam
Sure,
(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the .....firstborn..... of all creation;
also consider:
(Hebrews 1:1-4) Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom ...[text shortened]... to a better than angel position.
Before that he was an angel.
That is what he was created as.

You stuck in a cult my friend.

Originally posted by divegeester
No I don't "know" the answer roigam.

I have my own belief which is based on these two fundamental truths, for me: 1) The Lord is ONE (entity), 2) The deity of Christ. Not being able to fully understand this mystery is not a problem for me and I don't need to accept the error of the THREE (entities)-in-ONE trinity in order to placate my interest.

...[text shortened]... permit, someone from the Kingdom of God. I believe that holding this type of thought is cultism.

If God and Jesus are 'one entity', as you put it, how could Jesus have died on the cross, while God was still alive?

You may not have an answer, I realize, because we cannot fully comprehend, but your theory is no better than the Trinity.

This is why I am leaning towards God being God, and Jesus being Jesus, human. Seperate.

Originally posted by chaney3
If God and Jesus are 'one entity', as you put it, how could Jesus have died on the cross, while God was still alive?

You may not have an answer, I realize, because we cannot fully comprehend, but your theory is no better than the Trinity.

This is why I am leaning towards God being God, and Jesus being Jesus, human. Seperate.

I have zero interest in debating a complex biblical issue with someone who cannot even decide which side of their bed to get out of in the morning.

Hello, sonship....?

Originally posted by roigam
Sure,
(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the .....firstborn..... of all creation;
also consider:
(Hebrews 1:1-4) Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom ...[text shortened]... to a better than angel position.
Before that he was an angel.
That is what he was created as.

I've been over this passage with Robbie countless times.

The "firstborn" in this verse does not mean, literally, "first". It means "preeminent". And from John 1:1, we see that the Word existed before He took human form as the man Jesus. So he was not "created". He was with God from the beginning. This leads us smoothly into a "trinity" concept of God.

I understand that you must back up your ingrained training, but come on.

And please, your imagined translation of Scripture, which your church has created to fit your already-made doctrine of imagination, is not Scripture. It is a mockery of Scripture. Continually quoting it here is much like what conservatives do in the Debates forum when they quote "fake news" websites.

Hi sonship, would you be interested in responding to the OP?

Originally posted by divegeester
I don't.

So if Jesus is divine and the Holy Spirit is divine, and you believe in one God, why do you reject the trinity?

If water is one entity and can take the form of a solid a liquid and a gas, why can't the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all make up one God?

Originally posted by divegeester



This is a critical and pivotal doctrinal question regarding what you believe.[/b]

Sonship you play up the trinity in this forum and I have a question for you on it which you have been dodging for months.

I consider this a lie.
What you mean is that my past replies to this repeated question has not met your requirement to receive a binary YES or NO.

Since I will not allow you to corner me into a binary YES or NO answer, you consider a nuanced reply to a nuanced question as a dodge.

And I just may write a lot more on the Trinity. But if I do, as usual, I will be emphasizing the experience of the Trinity rather than just the systematic doctrine of the Trinity.

If a person does not believe that Jesus is Lord how can he be saved?
That Jesus is the Lord God is trinitarian in some sense.

If a Christian/person rejects your version of the trinity teaching entirely, does that mean that they are precluded from having the spirit of Christ and if so, does that mean therefore, that they are not saved?

You may have the Spirit of Christ by calling on the Lord Jesus to receive the Lord Jesus. Plenty of people have and will continue to without knowing much about the revelation of the three-oneness of God.

At least it has been revealed to them that Jesus is the Divine Lord and Savior. And to come to Jesus is to come to God. They know that in coming to Jesus Christ they have come to God Himself. They know it.

Now if you yet again come back demanding a YES or NO to your challenge, because I have "dodged" your question, I will have to repeat the unfortunate charge that you are ... less than candid, let's say.

Now a question to you.

Have you noticed that nearly every discussion concerning spiritual matters from a Christian perspective here seems to eventually gravitate to an argument about "Whose saved? And Whose not saved ?"

Out of scores of subjects to discuss, it seems too often all talk gravitates to the direction of "Saved or Not??" - or the assurance of personal salvation.

This to me is like discussing milk over and over again. This time powdered milk. This time low-fat milk. This time chocolate milk. This time whole milk. Then back around the circuit again to powdered milk.

Milk, milk, milk, milk.
I write something on the Triune God and back again you or someone else pulls the discussion to "Well if I don';t agree AM I SAVED?"

I write something on God's purpose and someone drags the discussion back to "But if you don't --------- then you're not saved."

Some here cannot progress any further even after years of dialogue.

The Trinity in Salvation
http://www.sermonaudio.com/saplayer/playpopup.asp?SID=8191218516

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So if Jesus is divine and the Holy Spirit is divine, and you believe in one God, why do you reject the trinity?

If water is one entity and can take the form of a solid a liquid and a gas, why can't the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all make up one God?

Thank you, couldn't have said it better myself. Although I think this is a very simplistic and narrow view which does not do God the justice for who he is and deserves, it is nonetheless easy for us to understand if understood in these terms.

H2O is one thing which can be in three different forms all with their own respective properties.