a big flaw in the old testament..

LH, do you believe centaurs existed, or is xlacir wrong about that?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
LH, do you believe centaurs existed, or is xlacir wrong about that?

I've never heard of xlacir's centaurs. Maybe if he gave a reference I'd have a better idea of what he's talking about.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
What's the difference between saying "Agamemnon launched 1000 ships against Troy" and "Agamemnon launched a lot of ships against Troy"?

EDIT: Details work well in oral tradition; "setting the atmosphere" -- so to speak.

If you are a literalist, the difference is critical. If you realize that the various books of the Bible
(and to varying degrees) are historical mythologies, with both ethnocentric leanings and the
anthropomorphizing of the Divine that all religious texts have, and, most significantly, metaphorical
reinterpretation (for which the Jews known and at which they were particularly good), then you
should have no problem.

Like you said, when the author says '1000' and we all know there is no way whatsoever that 1000
ships were possible, we understand that the author was embellishing for his Greek audience to
inspire a patriotic spirit (e.g.).

Nemesio

Originally posted by xlacir
God didnt created dinosaurs thats y he destroyed them . the fallen angels are the one who created those animals and those half human half horse and the beast...

R u distrbd, r wot?

D

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
What makes you think I haven't done this already? My faith has dwindled and sputtered for various reasons over many years.

You're not the only one whose faith has dwindled and sputtered.
My faith has dwindled and sputtered over many years too.

Grasping God in the word first thing in the morning is an excellent habit to build up. Without it I would have dwindled and sputtered a whole lot more.

Originally posted by jaywill
You're not the only one whose faith has dwindled and sputtered.
My faith has dwindled and sputtered over many years too.

Grasping God in the word first thing in the morning is an excellent habit to build up. Without it I would have dwindled and sputtered a whole lot more.

Well, I have to revize that a little. I had one major loss of faith in my teenage years. Since then there have only been trials to test my faith.

I never really doubted after that first time that Jesus was Son of God.
So my experience my not be the same as yours in that regard.

Originally posted by jaywill
I never really doubted after that first time that Jesus was Son of God.

It is for this reason that your faith is weak. A healthy faith is one which doubts at every turn,
for in doubt comes examination and, consequently, a stronger faith. A faith without doubt is
akin to a faith without questions.

Nemesio

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I've never heard of xlacir's centaurs. Maybe if he gave a reference I'd have a better idea of what he's talking about.

Are you saying that depending on xlacir's reference, you might concede that centaurs existed?

Do you think fallen angels created dinosaurs?

Originally posted by Nemesio
It is for this reason that your faith is weak. A healthy faith is one which doubts at every turn,
for in doubt comes examination and, consequently, a stronger faith. A faith without doubt is
akin to a faith without questions.

Nemesio

Nemesio,

Would you stop it?

I have plenty of questions. Good ones. Real good ones. I read the Bible and constantly ask questions. I don't usually bring my questions about my faith to vehement opposers to my faith.

If you were having marital problems with your spouse would you seek council from someone who was a swarn enemy of your wife?

Maybe, if you acted a wee bit more friendly towards my faith, I'd open up to you some of the things that I don't understand and do question.

But I think you're having more fun attacking the gospel for that.

But for the record, of course I have questions. But I have also learned that "the peace of Christ passes every man's understanding". Often the peace of Christ in the heart is such an answer that curiosity becomes a lesser priority than just to know Him.

To the original question, scholars believe dinosaurs are mentioned multiple times in the old testament. The old testament is a difficult book to read and lots of people tend to make assumptions one way or the other. Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?" Every age has argued over the existence of cities, cultures, customs not our own. Instead of leveling accusations, look at what you are presented with.

Here's the behemoth: Job 40:15-24
"15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. 16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. 17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. 18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron. 19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him. 20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play. 21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens. 22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about. 23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth. 24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares."

Tanniyn-mentioned 28 times in the bible orginally translated as "dragon", but is also translated “serpent,” “sea monster,” “dinosaur,” “great creature,” and “reptile.”

Leviathan-Leviathan has the following attributes according to Job chapter 41, Psalm 104:25,26 and Isaiah 27:1. This is only a partial listing—just enough to make the point. The Leviathan is one of the most mysterious animals mentioned in the bible, a sea creature that breathes fire.

1. Isaiah 27:1: "In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea."
2. Psalms 74:14: "Thou didst crush the heads of the Leviathan, thou didst give him for food to the desert people."
3. Psalms 104:25,26: "O Lord, how manifold thy works, in wisdom you have created them all. So is this great and wide sea... there go the ships and the Leviathan which you have created to play therein" (AV);
4. Book of Job 3:8 "Lo let the night be solitary, let no joyful cry be heard in it. Let them curse it who curse the day who are ready to awake the Leviathan";
5. Book of Job 41:1-34: "Can you draw out a Leviathan with a hook or press down its tongue with a cord? Canst thou put a hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a bridle ring? Will he make many supplications to thee? Will he speak soft words to thee? Will he make a covenant with thee? To take him for thy servant forever? Will thou play with him as with a bird? Or wilt thou bind him for thy girls? Will the tradesmen heap up payment for him?... Lay thy hand upon him, thou will no more think of fighting. Behold the hope of him is in vain, shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him? None is so fierce that dare stir him up. who then is able to stand before me?...Who can open the doors of his face? His teeth are terrible round about. His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal. One is near to the another, that no air can come between them. They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered. By his [sneezing] a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of morning. Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth....His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone....He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble....He maketh the deep to boil like a pot....he is a king over all the children of pride."


Unicorn/One-Horned Beast-The "unicorn," mentioned nine times in the KJV Bible, is the Hebrew word "Re-em." The Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) translated it "Monokeros" (one-horn) which was used in Bibles until the 19th century when Akkadian and Ugaritic records were found that mentioned the "Re-em" being hunted like a wild ox. However, their early pictograph for the "Re-em" shows an animal head with three horns, like a Triceratops. In Psalm 92:10 the "Re-em" has but one horn, while the language or Deuteronomy 33:17 implies two horns. Although most commentators and modern versions translate it as a bull or rhino, some have theorized that "Re-em" might be a Monoclonious (single horned dinosaur like Triceratops). In Job 39:9-12 God asks, "Will the unicorn be willing to serve you, or abide by your crib? Can you bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after you? Wilt you trust him, because his strength is great?" This passage shows that the unicorn, whatever it was, could not be tamed to be used in farming, as could an ox. In his classic work Naturalis Historia the first century author Pliny the Elder described "an exceedingly wild beast called the Monoceros [one-horned]. ...It makes a deep lowing noise, and one black horn two cubits long projects from the middle of its forehead." He describes it as like an elephant in length, but with much shorter legs. Other classical authors like Aelian, Oppian, and Martial also mention a "nose-horn" creature (a "Rinokeros"😉. Some claim that the "Rinokeros" sharpens his horn on a rock and utilizes it in fighting elephants. This is the root word from which we get the modern name rhinoceros. But a rhino does not stab with its horn, which is actually composed of keratin (hair). The correlation between the classical authors and some modern cryptozoological reports is striking. Dr. Roy Mackal’s explorations in the Congo brought back reports of a rare, single-horned animal called "Emela-ntouka" or "killer of elephants." In a recent expedition, pygmies in Cameroon identified the horned creature (there called "Ngoubou"😉 with a Ceratopsian dinosaur and claimed it could sport from one to four horns. Indeed, modern researchers believe that the ceratopsian dinosaurs likely did use their great horn for combat (Dodson, Peter, The Horned Dinosaurs:A Natural History, 1996, p.123.)

Originally posted by jaywill
I have plenty of questions. Good ones. Real good ones. I read the Bible and constantly ask questions. I don't usually bring my questions about my faith to vehement opposers to my faith.

That is the best place to bring your questions. If your questions can withstand the most
bitter scrutiny of people who are vehement, then you know that your answers are sound. I'm not
talking about howardgee, who is merely vitriolic and spiteful. I'm talking about people who challenge
you to step away from certain preconceptions and test them, such as 'The Bible is Literally True,' or
'Jesus was the Son of God,' or even 'God exists.'

If you cannot entertain the arguments against these preconceptions, then you've not tested your
faith. And, if in the process, you find that abandoning one of these preconceptions is the best and
soundest decision, then your faith has grown, not shrunk.

If you were having marital problems with your spouse would you seek council from someone who was a swarn enemy of your wife?

I would seek counsel from people who would not pull punches with me. I would expect that, if I was
whining, that the person would say 'Stop being such a wuss,' instead of saying, 'There, there....'

You've made a mistake thinking I am the enemy of Christianity. I'm not. I have a deep reverence
for it (and many other traditions). But, that reverence only comes with respect, and respect only
comes with examination, and examination necessitates questioning and doubt.

Maybe, if you acted a wee bit more friendly towards my faith, I'd open up to you some of the things that I don't understand and do question.

It is unfortunate that you think that 'questions' are 'unfriendly.' And in terms of 'opening up,' what
do you really care if I think you're the Second Coming or a First-Order moron, whether I think you
are really Holy and Touched by God, or just touched? I don't know who 'Jaywill' is and who am is
'Nemesio' to you? My opinion and perspectives only have as much value as you give them.

But I think you're having more fun attacking the gospel for that.

I wouldn't have studied the Gospels in the original Greek if I had fun 'attacking' them. I don't even
'attack' your (often bizarre) understanding of Christian Scripture 'for fun.' I have this silly notion
that, if I discuss things with opened-minded people, both will be richer for it and both will have
faiths which evolve and grow.

Often the peace of Christ in the heart is such an answer that curiosity becomes a lesser priority than just to know Him.

Curiosity is to seek to know Him, as it were. When curiosity takes a back seat, it's because you
already think you know Him.

Nemesio

well, we've got to hand it to doctor dara, he/she know their stuff... maybe i have to accept defeat on this one, maybe the OT does talk about dinosaurs after all... what can be my new flaw..? i've got a good one, the smallest seed isn't the mustard seed, get out of that one doctor dara..?

Originally posted by rooktakesqueen
well, we've got to hand it to doctor dara, he/she know their stuff... maybe i have to accept defeat on this one, maybe the OT does talk about dinosaurs after all... what can be my new flaw..? i've got a good one, the smallest seed isn't the mustard seed, get out of that one doctor dara..?

That's already been covered elsewhere on this forum.

Originally posted by DoctorDara
To the original question, scholars believe dinosaurs are mentioned multiple times in the old testament. The old testament is a difficult book to read and lots of people tend to make assumptions one way or the other. Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?" Every age has argued over the existence of cities, cultures, customs not ...[text shortened]... Horned Dinosaurs:A Natural History, 1996, p.123.)

Doctor, have you found anything in your readings that suggests the existence of centaurs?

Originally posted by DoctorDara
To the original question, scholars believe dinosaurs are mentioned multiple times in the old testament.

Actually most scholars think references to leviathan, behemoth, and
're-em' are metaphorical. But, hey, believe what you want. If you
want to pretend that dating methods used to show that no dinosaur
ever met any human-like creature are questionable, but these obscure
Scriptural passages confirm that Adam rode Dino to work, then valete!

Nemesio