@josephw said“He shall drink the wine of the Wrath of God”
Revelation 14:10,11
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
“He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone”
“In the presence of the lamb”
What “rational discourse” is it that you want to have over this Josephw?
Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
John 3:18-21
¶ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
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[1] "tormented with fire and brimstone" mean? [/b]
To me the first point means that the vanquishing by God of Antichrist and his worshipping followers will be total, absiolute, unconditional defeat and terrible to the uttermost - (practically unimaginable) - horrifying.
I do not have to be able to know the physics or science of it. It communicates that the worshippers of the Antichrist will undergo conscious eternal torment.
Notice the phrase "the smoke of thier TORMENTING "
"And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (v.11)
I do not feel the science of this needs my explanation.
I don't know about that. If pressed to explain the physiology or physics of this, I must answer that I cannot explain. But failure to explain this does not dimenish the obvious horror of what is discribed.
I don't want to have anything to do with that.
Not even to satisfy my curiousity, do I want anything to do with it.
Thier defeat and punishment is total and without mercy.
"He also shall drink the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath . . . " (v10a)
The implication is that God's anger can have degrees, can be "diluted". But in THIS case it is without dilution of restraint. The full measure of God's wrath in executed.
When I read this terrifying passage I consider that the subjects of Antichrist refused to repent in chapter 16. They seemed to derive so much pleasure in absolute rebellion against God that they preferred thier punishment more than to repent.
"And the fourth poured out his bowl upon the sin; and it was given to it to burn men with fire. And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who has the authroity over these plagues, and they did not repentt so as to give Him glory."(16:8,9)
Again the extent of their total dedication to follow Antichrist is seen.
"And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast; and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongies for pain. and blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores; and they did not repent of their works." (16:10,11)
Thier dedication to Antichrist and to Satan is absolute.
And thier defeat in chapter 14 is as absolute on God's side.
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[2] "in the presence of the Lamb" mean?
This means to me that their opposition is directly not indirectly against Christ.
And His reaction to oversee their defeat is His response.
LIke - "Here is the One you were opposing. And here too is the One who is responding to that opposition, deliberately, unmistakenly, directly, under His supervision."
[3] "forever and ever" mean
It means the same thing as Christ reign "forever and ever" (Rev. 11:15)
It means in perpituity.
If it doesn't mean forever then I would question why should the same phrase mean forever in other places like for the reign of Christ and the sons of God?
Possible objections raised to this kind of interpretation run along these lines:
1.) The science of such a thing you cannot explain.
2) It makes Christ and God too terribly mean so as to destroy His character in
the rest of the Bible.
3.) It is unreasonable to those whose offense seems lesser than those offenders
in Rev. 14.
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My briefest repliess to these three arguments would be.
1.) I would not use limitations of scientific knowledge to be a cause of unbelief in what is warned.
2.) It only makes any sense if beyond God there is no perfection and an ultimate crime is possible - met with ultimate punishment to fit such an ultimate crime.
3.) I do not know if what is described in Revelation chapter 14 is the exact common portion of all who are lost. I said I do not know. Jesus spoke of those who were made twice as much a child of Gehenna (Matt. 15:3) which suggests probably different levels of culpability. But I don't know for sure.
At the last judgment I do not expect to be shocked at God's incompetense. I expect to be shocked in the other direction - the infinitude of His wisdom, knowledge of facts and infallible understanding of every being's situation and circumstances.
I expect to be astounded at how limited our knowledge and wisdom was in comparison to His infallibility.
Lastly, I do not have to LIKE any of these passages in order to believe them.
That is two distinct matters, imo.
And I believe that the same God also uttered this:
"For as high as the heavens are above the earth, So great is His lovingkindness upon those who fear Him. As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
As compassionate as a father is toward his children, So compassionate is Jehovah towards those who fear Him. For He knows our frame ; He remembers that we are dust." (Psalm 103:11-14)
I just believe that ultimate compassion AND ultimate judgment can proceed from the same eternal God. I do not believe in God the two aspects are mutually exclusive.
@fmf saidYou and divegeester asked the question and sonship did a bang-up job of explaining the meaning of everlasting punishment to you.
Thanks for all that, sonship.
Now, say it to josephw and ask him to debate you.
What more do you want?
You want to deride, criticize, accuse, malign, denigrate and otherwise impugn the character of anyone that disagrees with you.
@sonship saidWhat is missing from your post is who is going to benefit from Gods ultimate compassion and who is going to face Gods ultimate judgement. Im pretty sure what you believe is contrary to the bible.
I just believe that ultimate compassion AND ultimate judgment can proceed from the same eternal God. I do not believe in God the two aspects are mutually exclusive.
I would say that the beneficiaries of compassion are
- the merciful
- the peacemakers
- the truthful
- the good Samaritans
- the Kind and thoughtful
- the compassionate and the helpful
- all workers of good
The ones who will face the wrath of God
- those professing faith and continue to live in sin
- all workers of evil
- all who are disobedient to the commandments.
All these statements are clearly supported by the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.
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@rajk999 saidI'm sure sonship would agree.
What is missing from your post is who is going to benefit from Gods ultimate compassion and who is going to face Gods ultimate judgement. Im pretty sure what you believe is contrary to the bible.
I would say that the beneficiaries of compassion are
- the merciful
- the peacemakers
- the truthful
- the good Samaritans
- the Kind and thoughtful
- the compassionate ...[text shortened]... nts.
All these statements are clearly supported by the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.
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There are two types of men. Those that walk in the light, and those that love the darkness.
John 3:17.18
¶ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
@josephw saidAre you saying that all men who don't believe in god 'love the darkness'?
I'm sure sonship would agree.
There are two types of men. Those that walk in the light, and those that love the darkness.
John 3:17.18
¶ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
@avalanchethecat saidIs this not a binary universe? IDK
Are you saying that all men who don't believe in god 'love the darkness'?
Two paths lie before all. Good and evil, right and wrong.
This is the spirituality forum. That's the context of my comments, and, as I believe, the inference of the verses I quoted.
@josephw saidStill not clear. If you are saying that all men who don't believe in god 'love the darkness', then you're obviously wrong.
Is this not a binary universe? IDK
Two paths lie before all. Good and evil, right and wrong.
This is the spirituality forum. That's the context of my comments, and, as I believe, the inference of the verses I quoted.
@avalanchethecat saidLight and darkness.
Still not clear. If you are saying that all men who don't believe in god 'love the darkness', then you're obviously wrong.
Truth and lies.
Right and wrong.
Good and evil.
If a man doesn't love Jesus, and obey him, then he will, by default, love that which he serves.
Everyone has a master, something he has chosen to define his life. The thing we love we serve.
Unless you think there's some neutral ground somewhere.
@josephw saidRevelation 14:10,11
Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
John 3:18-21
¶ He that believeth on hi ...[text shortened]... doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.