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Originally posted by darvlayAs one who has read this part of the Bible, I would agree with you.
John 3:4-7
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is bor ...[text shortened]... hat you must a believer in Jesus Christ and believe in him as the Son of God and Saviour of Man.
What about somebody who has never seen these verses, surely a different set of rules would apply? Would God condemn them for their ignorance? I contend that this would be the accepting and rejecting of our conscience.
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Originally posted by HalitoseA new set of rules, eh? Perhaps this can be the new Biblical mystery to rival the ETA of the second coming of Christ?
As one who has read this part of the Bible, I would agree with you.
What about somebody who has never seen these verses, surely a different set of rules would apply? Would God condemn them for their ignorance? I contend that this would be the accepting and rejecting of our conscience.
In all fairness, the Judge himself would be the only one qualified to answer the above questions accurately but I find it to be highly illogical that a fair and just Judge would extol the virtues of evangelism yet show leniency if one remains blissfully ignorant for whatever reason.
Originally posted by wibChristianity (the way that the church teaches it) indeed seems to break down in a lot of ways. I believe that Jesus was the Christ, and that this Christ consciousness (spelling?) can be achieved by anyone. Did Jesus not say that we are all sons of God and that we can do greater things then he did? Knock and the door will be opened. I don't believe that truth is denied those who sincerly search for it. Eternal hell seems more like a brain washing scam to me. A just God doesn't make people imperfect, and then torment them for not being perfect based on the few years that we spend here on earth. It makes more sense that he sends us back to improve. Hence reincarnation.
Well I appreciate the attempted response Halitose. I really do. But it just sounds terribly vague to me. I suppose I'm just too literal to ever understand how anyone makes sense of religion. Maybe "sense" should never play a part in it?
I still haven't seen anything that even remotely answers Darvlay's question.
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Originally posted by darvlayActually its quite simple...
A new set of rules, eh? Perhaps this can be the new Biblical mystery to rival the ETA of the second coming of Christ?
In all fairness, the Judge himself would be the only one qualified to answer the above questions accurately but I find it to be highly illogical that a fair and just Judge would extol the virtues of evangelism yet show leniency if one r ...[text shortened]...
I also find it illogical that a fair judge would even consider ignorance as a reasonable alibi.
God's moral law is revealed in our conscience and confirmed through scripture... By breaking the first, you break the second by default, whether you know about it or not.
I still want to meet the person who has lived a morally perfect life, because they would have a free pass for sure.
For a sinner like me however, I think a belief in Christ is necissary.
Originally posted by darvlayAre they afraid of giving an opinion? I have not noticed that. I think some, not all, are afraid of further explaining their opinion and their ultimate answer comes down to their faith. The difference however between someone like a Halitose and someone like BS101 or dj2becker is that Halitose does their best to explain themselves and, at least in my experience, attempts to see the opposite perspective.
Here's another question to consider:
Why are most of the Christians in this forum afraid to give an opinion on the question I answered (with the exception of Halitose)? Does anyone at all hold the same untenable position as BS101?
Originally posted by HalitoseI completely disagree. But that's another argument for another time.
Actually its quite simple...
God's moral law is revealed in our conscience and confirmed through scripture... By breaking the first, you break the second by default, whether you know about it or not.
I still want to meet the person who has lived a morally perfect life, because they would have a free pass for sure.
For a sinner like me however, I think a belief in Christ is necissary.
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Originally posted by darvlayOriginally posted by darvlay
I completely disagree. But that's another argument for another time.
Here's another question to consider: Why are most of the Christians in this forum afraid to give an opinion on the question I've asked (with the exception of Halitose)? Does anyone at all hold the same untenable position as BS101?
later, after answered question:
Originally posted by darvlay
I completely disagree.
Hmmmm... See the connection? It's a pity they're afraid. Ok, I'll catch up on the bickering later.
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this is all done from memory and so may not be true as i don't actually have a bible handy, but i think there is a verse in one of pauls letters that basically says that those who have not heard the Word of God but if the word is written on thier soul/consience then they shall be saved. bascially, if i remeber correctly, if you act like God wishes you to act - striving to be like him and trully sorry of your sin, you shall be saved.
i think.
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Originally posted by RatXI'm not too sure what you're getting at. I was disagreeing with Halitosis' claim that God's moral law is revealed to us through our conscience. The reason I didn't want to pursue the issue further was because I was hoping to get a few more opinions on the original question before getting all tangential (which I don't mind).
Originally posted by darvlay
[b]Here's another question to consider: Why are most of the Christians in this forum afraid to give an opinion on the question I've asked (with the exception of Halitose)? Does anyone at all hold the same untenable position as BS101?
later, after answered question:
Originally posted by darvlay
I complete ...[text shortened]... See the connection? It's a pity they're afraid. Ok, I'll catch up on the bickering later.[/b]
And I know they (the Christians) are not afraid, per se. I assume they just don't want to be placed on the same side as our resident nutbags but I was hoping by goading them they would chime in with their thoughts, like Halitosis has.
Originally posted by geniusThanks. When you're sure and have the scriptual reference handy, get back to us.
this is all done from memory and so may not be true as i don't actually have a bible handy, but i think there is a verse in one of pauls letters that basically says that those who have not heard the Word of God but if the word is written on thier soul/consience then they shall be saved. bascially, if i remeber correctly, if you act like God wishes you to act - striving to be like him and trully sorry of your sin, you shall be saved.
i think.
Originally posted by geniusIs it perhaps these?
this is all done from memory and so may not be true as i don't actually have a bible handy, but i think there is a verse in one of pauls letters that basically says that those who have not heard the Word of God but if the word is written on thier soul/consience then they shall be saved. bascially, if i remeber correctly, if you act like God wishes you to act - striving to be like him and trully sorry of your sin, you shall be saved.
i think.
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;