25 Sep 05
Originally posted by darvlayObviously the notion you have presented (by you I do not mean attributed authorship) is fallacious, and thusly can not be correct.
Originally posted by Blindfaith101:
[b]"Everyone has the chance, to accept the love and Sacrifice that JESUS CHRIST gave. Therefore we all have the power to prevent the sufferring of going to Hell."
This is a large point of contention with me, as I've mentioned before. Evangelical Christians in these forums have stated several times that [ ...[text shortened]... a like most of you rich white folk. Is this an unfair geographic advantage that God has set up?[/b]
To answer your questions specifically.
Do I believe this to be true?
No.
Is all of mankind given fair (and assumedly equal) opportunity to hear the gospel?
No.
How could a just, fair, and loving God send someone to suffer eternally without ever being given a fair chance to repent?
He wouldn't (and doesn't according to my belief).
(I believe) There is a simplistic explanation of this scenario in scripture, but that would require comprehensive knowledge and an investment of earnest reading of the scriptures to divine this.
25 Sep 05
Originally posted by darvlayCut me some slack jack! I was only offline for two days! 😀
Here's another question to consider:
Why are most of the Christians in this forum afraid to give an opinion on the question I've asked (with the exception of Halitose)? Does anyone at all hold the same untenable position as BS101?
25 Sep 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterFormost, I want to say I highly agreed with you earlier post in answer to the questions posed at the beginning of this thread.
Well...I wouldn't exactly say sweet. An unbeliever would burn, but then die and cease to exist. Not my idea of sweet....😉
That said, I highly disagree with this statement. I find it to be contradictory to scripture, in the sense of "cease to exist".
25 Sep 05
3 edits
Originally posted by kirksey957no. please explain. are you infering that noone understands the bible and this ends up in confusion? if we all understood the bible perfectly, every word, then bible studies would be useless and sermons would be mostly devoid of purpose. i go to church to learn, because i want to understand more! i learn from teachers of Gods Word, those who have a greater insight than i.
Do you realize how your simple post pretty well sums up the history of the Christian church?
jewdism is more a race than a religion anymore, and if the bible says there is a place reserved for those who refuse to convert then so be it. i have long wondered why they do not give blood/grain sacrafices any longer, and if anyone can answer this i would be much obliged...😛
what i have come to beleive about the earthly death (althought this is not soemthing i can explain well) is that there are those who are gifted eternal life, who live forever, and there are those who die. those who die do not die in an earthly sense-they do not cease to exist. they die in a spiritual sense. their existence is pointless, seperated from God. they know not love or forgivness only hate, anger and other schemes of the devil.
25 Sep 05
2 edits
Ivanhoe, do you agree with these two premises:
(1) Hell is reserved for people who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted. (In case you need to look up whether you believe this or not, see item 1034 at this link: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#IV )
(2) Jews are people. (I don't know if your source addresses this. You may have to decide for yourself.)
Do you agree that this conclusion may be deduced:
(3) Jews who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted are among those for whom hell is reserved.
Let us get to the bottom of this issue.
25 Sep 05
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesI cannot and I do not want to give an answer to this because I will not be their judge. Only God has the insight and the authority to decide whether someone will go to heaven or hell.
Ivanhoe, do you agree with these two premises:
(1) Hell is reserved for people who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted
(2) Jews are people
Do you agree that this conclusion may be deduced:
(3) Jews who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted are among those for whom hell is reserved.
Let us get to the bottom of this issue.
25 Sep 05
4 edits
Originally posted by ivanhoeI'm asking you to apply rules of deduction, not to judge anybody.
I cannot and I do not want to give an answer to this because I will not be their judge. Only God has the insight and the authority to decide whether someone will go to heaven or hell.
Why are you being so uncooperative?
Treat premises (1) and (2) as being completely abstract. Does (3) follow from them?
I'm asking you to assess the validity of the argument, not the truth of the conclusion.
We can try an easier one to start with.
(1a) The barnyard is reserved for farm animals.
(2a) Goats are farm animals
Therefore
(3a) Goats are among the animals for which the barnyard is reserved.
Valid or not?
25 Sep 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeThen why does 1034 lay out a necessary condition for entering hell?
Only God has the insight and the authority to decide whether someone will go to heaven or hell.
Either 1034 is wrong, or God is bound by that necessary condition and we can make deductions about the sort of people that will be in hell. You can't have it both ways.
25 Sep 05
Originally posted by DoctorScribbles(2) Jews are people. (I don't know if your source addresses this. You may have to decide for yourself.)
Ivanhoe, do you agree with these two premises:
(1) Hell is reserved for people who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted. (In case you need to look up whether you believe this or not, see item 1034 at this link: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#IV )
(2) Jews are people. (I don't know if your sourc ...[text shortened]... converted are among those for whom hell is reserved.
Let us get to the bottom of this issue.
This is an extremely cheap shot.
25 Sep 05
1 edit
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesI'm sorry, but that is not the way I deal with the Cathechism. You are the expert on logic so if you want to deduce anything go right ahead.
I'm asking you to apply rules of deduction, not to judge anybody.
Why are you being so uncooperative?
Treat premises (1) and (2) as being completely abstract. Does (3) follow from them?
I'm asking you to assess the validity of the argument, not the truth of the conclusion.
We can try an easier one to start with.
(1) The barnyard is re ...[text shortened]...
Therefore
(3) Goats are among the animals for which the barnyard is reserved.
Valid or not?
The issues at hand cannot be moulded in such a way to make them fit into the construction you are presenting here.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm#p1
CHAPTER TWO
I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD
ARTICLE 5
"HE DESCENDED INTO HELL. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN"
631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."475 The Apostles' Creed confesses in the same article Christ's descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:
Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead, and shed his peaceful light on all mankind, your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.476
Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell
632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.477 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.478
633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.479 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom":480 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."481 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.482
634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."483 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.
635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."484 Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."485 Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."486
Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."487
IN BRIEF
636 By the expression "He descended into hell", the Apostles' Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil "who has the power of death" (Heb 2:14).
637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven's gates for the just who had gone before him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
475 Eph 4:9-10.
476 Roman Missal, Easter Vigil 18, Exsultet.
477 Acts 3:15; Rom 8:11; I Cor 15:20; cf. Heb 13:20.
478 Cf. I Pt 3:18-19.
479 Cf. Phil 2:10; Acts 2:24; Rev 1:18; Eph 4:9; Pss 6:6; 88:11-13.
480 Cf. Ps 89:49; I Sam 28:19; Ezek 32:17-32; Lk 16:22-26.
481 Roman Catechism 1, 6, 3.
482 Cf. Council of Rome (745): DS 587; Benedict XII, Cum dudum (1341): DS 1011; Clement VI, Super quibusdam (1351): DS 1077; Council of Toledo IV (625): DS 485; Mt 27:52-53.
483 I Pt 4:6.
484 Jn 5:25; cf. Mt 12:40; Rom 10:7; Eph 4:9.
485 Heb 2:14-15; cf. Acts 3:15.
486 Rev 1:18; Phil 2:10.
487 Ancient Homily for Holy Saturday: PG 43, 440A, 452C; LH, Holy Saturday, OR.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm#p1
25 Sep 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerIf Ivanhoe would be more cooperative and just answer the questions, I wouldn't have to resort to cheap shots.
[b](2) Jews are people. (I don't know if your source addresses this. You may have to decide for yourself.)
This is an extremely cheap shot.[/b]
LH, does (3) follow from (1) and (2)?