A real life dilemma - tonight!

Originally posted by twhitehead
Now you are just lying outright.

You asked me some hypothetical questions and I gave you some hypothetical answers.

-Removed-

I was thinking more of those first century |Christians who refused to offer up incense
to Caesar and were executed as a consequence, but then, you would need to know
some history and clearly books are not your thing.

-Removed-

whatever, i have no issues with it, its you people who have issues.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I was thinking more of those first century |Christians who refused to offer up incense
to Caesar and were executed as a consequence, but then, you would need to know
some history and clearly books are not your thing.

Offering up incense to Caesar wouldn't have meant anything. So to die rather than do it doesn't really mean anything either, other than - perhaps - the satisfaction not doing it gave to those who were then killed [assuming that deriving satisfaction constitutes 'meaning'].

Originally posted by FMF
Offering up incense to Caesar wouldn't have meant anything. So to die rather than do it doesn't really mean anything either, other than - perhaps - the satisfaction not doing it gave to those who were then killed [assuming that deriving satisfaction constitutes 'meaning'].

clearly you have never read Pliny on how he executed Christians for failing to do so,
indeed, it was a test of whether they were actually Christians or not, some he
examined under torture, others he executed for failing to demonstrate allegiance to
Caesar and renounce their faith, in other words, they were willing to die for a principle.



There have been some of this mad sect whom I took notice of in particular as
Roman citizens, that they might be sent to that city. After some time, as is usual in
such examinations, the crime spread itself and many more cases came before me.
A libel was sent to me, though without an author, containing many names [of
persons accused]. These denied that they were Christians now, or ever had been.
They called upon the gods, and supplicated to your image, which I caused to be
brought to me for that purpose, with frankincense and wine; they also cursed Christ;
none of which things, it is said, can any of those that are ready Christians be
compelled to do; so I thought fit to let them go.

If they confessed that they were Christians, I asked them again, and a third time,
intermixing threatenings with the questions. If they persevered in their confession, I
ordered them to be executed;

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/pliny.html

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
clearly you have never read Pliny on how he executed Christians for failing to do so,
indeed, it was a test of whether they were actually Christians or not, some he
examined under torture, others he executed for failing to demonstrate allegiance to
Caesar and renounce their faith, in other words, they were willing to die for a principle.

I know all about it. "Renouncing" something under pain of torture or death at the hands of a tyrant or murderer doesn't mean anything as far as I am concerned - it certainly doesn't mean that one's beliefs have actually been renounced. To "demonstrate allegiance to Caesar" because of a threat of death does not mean having "allegiance to Caesar". While I think fighting oppression is one thing, I don't think this kind of "willing[ness] to die for a principle" that you are talking about here has any meaning. If it has meaning for you that is your prerogative. But you appear to be presenting it as something that has objective meaning and that should be seen as impressive in some way.

Originally posted by FMF
I know all about it. "Renouncing" something under pain of torture or death at the hands of a tyrant or murderer doesn't mean anything as far as I am concerned - it certainly doesn't mean that one's beliefs have actually been renounced. To "demonstrate allegiance to Caesar" because of a threat of death does not mean having "allegiance to Caesar". While I think fi ething that has objective meaning and that should be seen as impressive in some way.

no i am merely presenting it as evidence that persons were willing to die for a principle
and may be morally justified in doing so, the mere fact that they could easily renounce
those principles and save their life is a rather insurmountable obstacle to any negation
of that fact.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no i am merely presenting it as evidence that persons were willing to die for a principle
and may be morally justified in doing so, the mere fact that they could easily renounce
those principles and save their life is a rather insurmountable obstacle to any negation
of that fact.

Renouncing their beliefs to avoid being murdered or executed wouldn't mean anything. Do you think if they said they renounced their beliefs that it means they actually renounce them?

Originally posted by FMF
Renouncing their beliefs to avoid being murdered or executed wouldn't mean anything. Do you think if they said they renounced their beliefs that it means they actually renounce them?

it means something to those who held their principles dearly, otherwise they would
have recanted, dont you think.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
it means something to those who hold their principles dearly, otherwise they would
have recanted, dont you think.

It's their prerogative, sure. But you have presented it here, I assume, as some kind of virtue. I don't see any meaning or virtue in it at all. Refusing to kill someone - I can understand. Refusing to rape someone - I can understand. Refusing to offer up incense to Caesar and being murdered/executed as a result: this doesn't have any particular virtue or meaning as far as I am concerned.

Originally posted by FMF
It's their prerogative, sure. But you have presented it here, I assume, as some kind of virtue. I don't see any meaning or virtue in it at all. Refusing to kill someone - I can understand. Refusing to rape someone - I can understand. Refusing to offer up incense to Caesar and being murdered/executed as a result: this doesn't have any particular virtue or meaning as far as I am concerned.

have you never read,

(Romans 8:38-39) . . .For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor
governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers  nor height nor depth
nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus
our Lord.

clearly their love for those principles was of greater value than life itself. How else are
we to explain it?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
have you never read,

(Romans 8:38-39) . . .For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor
governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers  nor height nor depth
nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus
our Lord.

clearly their love for those principles was of greater value than life itself.

I read it when I used to be a Christian, robbie. But to me this copy and paste from a book does not lend any meaning to choosing to die so as not to lie to a murderer or tyrant.