A real life dilemma - tonight!

Originally posted by FMF
I read it when I used to be a Christian, robbie. But to me this copy and paste from a book does not lend any meaning to choosing to die so as not to lie to a murderer or tyrant.

that is fine FMF, but clearly their conscience could not let them renounce their principles
even in the face of death, this is the point.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
that is fine FMF, but clearly their conscience could not let them renounce their principles
even in the face of death, this is the point.

Channelling one's spirituality into struggling for economic or social justice is a 'principle'. Seeking to empower people or liberate them from addiction or criminality, is a 'principle'. Exhibiting solidarity, toleration, generosity of spirit etc., these I can see as being the fruit of spiritual principles. Working to raise health levels or education levels has a context that consists of 'principles'. Struggling for freedom of speech, conscience, action, belief and worship strike me as 'principled' endeavours. But for me, choosing to die rather than tell a murderer or tyrant what they want to hear or choosing to die rather than burn some incense, hardly ranks as a 'principle' at all.

Originally posted by FMF
You asked me some hypothetical questions and I gave you some hypothetical answers.

And you lied in your answers, hypothetical or not. Why? What is so difficult about what I have been asking that at every turn you dodge and twist and lie to avoid answering anything I ask? Are you deliberately trying to act like robbie?

-Removed-

What, exactly is not what you said? What I quoted you saying?

And to your second point I was talking about what you reveal of yourself and your experience not what you think everyone else has experienced.
I personally have not had a lot of negative experiences with Christianity. But then the vast majority of Christians I know are really only Christians on Sundays - so I would say the worst aspect of Christianity I have experienced personally is a certain amount of ego centric behaviour (Christians act as if they are better than us atheists) and hypocrisy (they don't actually act any better, if anything some act worse while using Christianity as a cover).

Originally posted by twhitehead
And you lied in your answers, hypothetical or not. Why? What is so difficult about what I have been asking that at every turn you dodge and twist and lie to avoid answering anything I ask? Are you deliberately trying to act like robbie?

My answers were just hypothetical that's all. Hypothetically, in answer to your hypothetical question, I would give blood to everyone, and do my bit to fight poverty, in India and Africa and Indonesia. In real life however, I have decided to be an activist [of sorts] and to try to live my life according to what I think is a moral code, here in Indonesia. It is for you - if you want - to evaluate the virtue or moral meaning of my actions. If you present me with a moral map that is better than mine, then perhaps I will adopt it.

Originally posted by FMF
My answers were just hypothetical that's all.

Stop talking nonsense and admit that you lied outright. Do you even know what the word "hypothetical" means? Go look it up and think about it for a bit. "Hypothetical" does not mean "say whatever you like". And no, starving people in Ethiopia would not find it funny that you think their plight is 'hypothetical'. It is a real life dilemma as real as the on in the OP and includes real loss of life. But you choose to make light of it and lie.

It is for you - if you want - to evaluate the virtue or moral meaning of my actions.
So you feel we can only judge others morally? So Robbie should not tell us whether he thinks he is acting morally or not just as you refuse to tell us whether you think you are acting morally or not?

If you present me with a moral map that is better than mine, then perhaps I will adopt it.
I think the problem here is you are always assuming I am criticizing your own moral map and you are getting touchy about it because you feel guilty about something. I am not criticizing your moral map, I am trying to establish what it is, and possibly help you understand it a bit better.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So you feel we can only judge others morally? So Robbie should not tell us whether he thinks he is acting morally or not just as you refuse to tell us whether you think you are acting morally or not?

I think robbie should tell us whether he thinks we are, or he is, acting morally. Of course. And we should be able to respond and compare our ideas and principles and our perceptions of moral choices and imperatives. That's what the spirituality forum is all about surely?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Stop talking nonsense and admit that you lied outright.

Hypothetically, and strictly in the spirit of your questioning, yes, I would go to India and Africa and give everyone there blood if they needed it. In real life, of course, there is only so much blood that I am able to donate.

Originally posted by twhitehead
And no, starving people in Ethiopia would not find it funny that you think their plight is 'hypothetical'. It is a real life dilemma as real as the on in the OP and includes real loss of life. But you choose to make light of it and lie.

Surely my giving up a fight against poverty in one place - here, where there is "real loss of life" too - and going to a place of your choosing [in this instance Ethiopia] to fight poverty there, is a hypothetical proposal on your part? If I have 'made light of it' have you not 'made light of it also'?

Originally posted by FMF
I think robbie should tell us whether he thinks we are, or he is, acting morally. Of course. And we should be able to respond and compare our ideas and principles and our perceptions of moral choices and imperatives. That's what the spirituality forum is all about surely?

So why do you refuse when it comes to yourself?

Originally posted by FMF
Hypothetically, and strictly in the spirit of your questioning, yes, I would go to India and Africa and give everyone there blood if they needed it.

Stop lying. There is nothing hypothetical about it. You just can't admit that you don't and wont help the starving people in Africa. Why not just say it? Why the guilt?

-Removed-

So you would choose not to bow your knee without making any judgement on the matter? How?

Originally posted by FMF
Surely my giving up a fight against poverty in one place - here, where there is "real loss of life" too - and going to a place of your choosing [in this instance Ethiopia] to fight poverty there, is a hypothetical proposal on your part? If I have 'made light of it' have you not 'made light of it also'?

No, it is not a hypothetical proposal. I don't even know where you get that idea.
But you don't even seem to understand what 'hypothetical' means. It means "if the circumstances in the proposal prevail, what will your actions be". Since the circumstances in question do prevail, and you do not actually plan to carry out the actions you listed, you are lying.