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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    18 Jun '13 23:12 / 1 edit
    The Grace of God as it applies to the salvation of mankind goes back to the era of Adam and Eve. After the first sin, God promised a saviour who would come to redeem mankind and remove the curse of sin which is death.

    Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Subsequent promises of a Messiah who will save mankind were made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses. The prophets wrote extensively about the coming of Christ who will save mankind. This removal of death [permanent death that is] which is the curse of sin is called GRACE and it is the reason why man can enjoy eternal life. Nobody is righteous enough to receive eternal life on their own merit. But through Grace, ALL MEN have this facility as Christ died for ALL and not just the faithful or the righteous:

    Tit_2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.

    Death, because of Sin in the flesh, is the curse of all of Adams children. Christ removed that by his death and resurrection. Romans 3, 4 and 5 explains that in great detail.

    Can one therefore claim that ALL of mankind will be saved and be granted eternal life in Gods Kingdom? NO. Only those who are of faith.

    Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

    Can we say that ALL those claiming to be faithful will be saved? Again NO. Christ said:

    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (Mat 7:22-24)

    [i]Mar_7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.


    Jesus Christ dislikes hypocrites, lip service and mouth worship. He values believing in your heart, values good works and charity and love. He will say to those who claim to have faith only, but who failed to follow his commandments 'DEPART FROM ME'... ie those who hear without doing. Christ knows His followers and it is the DOERS, NOT THE TALKERS OR MOUTH WORSHIPPERS who are of Christ.

    Grace saves ALL mankind from the curse of sin in the flesh ie the sin which all of mankind inherited from Adam.

    Faith puts you in a position to gain eternal life through Christ by following his commandments.

    Works and righteousness is the criteria by which all of mankind will be judged in the day of judgment and rewarded accordingly some to eternal life and some to eternal damnation [Matt 25]

    Mat_16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Rev_22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


    Nobody is saved by works. All are saved by grace. All are sinful and fall short and nobody deserves the reward of eternal life in Gods Kingdom. That is a free gift which nobody deserves. But in order to receive that gift there are things to be done.

    The things to be done are clear... righteousness and godliness will inherit the Kingdom of God. Christ said:

    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Rev 22:13-15)
  2. 19 Jun '13 00:11
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    The Grace of God as it applies to the salvation of mankind goes back to the era of Adam and Eve. After the first sin, God promised a saviour who would come to redeem mankind and remove the curse of sin which is death.

    Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Subsequent promises ...[text shortened]... ers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Rev 22:13-15)[/i]
    Not really a short note, was it.
  3. 19 Jun '13 00:26
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    The Grace of God as it applies to the salvation of mankind goes back to the era of Adam and Eve. After the first sin, God promised a saviour who would come to redeem mankind and remove the curse of sin which is death.

    Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Subsequent promises ...[text shortened]... ers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Rev 22:13-15)[/i]
    Here is a question that is not quite covered:

    Can one claim based on Biblical teachings that there are (and/or have been) some of mankind who do not eventually come to have faith and find salvation?
  4. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    19 Jun '13 02:04
    Originally posted by JS357
    Here is a question that is not quite covered:

    Can one claim based on Biblical teachings that there are (and/or have been) some of mankind who do not eventually come to have faith and find salvation?
    There are many of mankind of all periods in history who would not have faith and would never find salvation. Many people are given the chance to find faith and many will be destroyed.

    There is a school of thought that the Bible supports the idea that even those punished in the flood were given a chance to repent and those who did will be eventually raised to be in Gods Kingdom.

    I dont know how that process works and I dont have answers which will please you. However God's methods are not fully known to us. There are many variables and missing pieces of information .. eg where did Christ go for the 18 yrs of his life not recorded in the Bible; what happens when we die; is there another chance to repent ; is there reincarnation of souls [something actually supported in the Bible] ??

    There are many writings in the library of the Jews at the time of Christ which paints a very complicated picture of life, death and afterlife... some of which Christ supported.
  5. Standard member KellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    19 Jun '13 02:21
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    The Grace of God as it applies to the salvation of mankind goes back to the era of Adam and Eve. After the first sin, God promised a saviour who would come to redeem mankind and remove the curse of sin which is death.

    Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Subsequent promises ...[text shortened]... ers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Rev 22:13-15)[/i]
    For the most part I agree with how you are putting this out, the only thing
    I'm a little concern with is you seem to be suggesting you have to get ready
    to receive a free gift, if you have to get ready for it, it isn't free. Where I
    believe we agree is that you do NOT get to just say I believe and go on with
    your sinful life as if nothing happened. If you are really turning your life
    over to God and God becomes apart of your life you will turn from your sins
    and serve God. The good thing is, God will give you a new life, you will
    become a new creature in Christ once you've asked God into your life.

    One of the great things about Christianity is we are not alone, God is a very
    active part of our lives helping us where we are weak, He is strong.
    Kelly
  6. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    19 Jun '13 15:24
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    For the most part I agree with how you are putting this out, the only thing
    I'm a little concern with is you seem to be suggesting you have to get ready
    to receive a free gift, if you have to get ready for it, it isn't free. Where I
    believe we agree is that you do NOT get to just say I believe and go on with
    your sinful life as if nothing happened. If y ...[text shortened]... e, God is a very
    active part of our lives helping us where we are weak, He is strong.
    Kelly
    I would like you KJ to take your time and examine this part very carefully as here is where the greatest delusion of modern Christianity exists.

    The free gift is NOT eternal life. The free gift is God sending His Son Jesus to die for the sins of the world. That is what we do not deserve and that is what no amount of our righteousness or good works can repay. That is the FREE GIFT - Jesus Christ His death and His resurrection. [Romans3-5]

    Joh_4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

    Jesus and His work on the cross is the free gift. To access the eternal life which ensues from Christ, there are things that we need to do and that is the Faith, Works and Righteousness.

    As you said, a man cannot claim to have Faith with his mouth and therafter proceed to life his old life as if nothing happened. A changed life in Christ requires good works. Maybe your definition of works is different from mine. In the end Christ will judge all.

    My main point about all of this is that there are churches that preach that good works are actually wrong. Such doctrines lead people in the wrong direction ie away from a life in Christ and toward hypocracy.
  7. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    19 Jun '13 15:29 / 2 edits
    The free gift is NOT eternal life.


    Why does Paul then write:

    New International Version (©2011)
    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    ?
  8. Standard member KellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    19 Jun '13 15:38
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I would like you KJ to take your time and examine this part very carefully as here is where the greatest delusion of modern Christianity exists.

    The free gift is NOT eternal life. The free gift is God sending His Son Jesus to die for the sins of the world. That is what we do not deserve and that is what no amount of our righteousness or good works can rep ...[text shortened]... doctrines lead people in the wrong direction ie away from a life in Christ and toward hypocracy.
    You go out of your way to complicate the simple, of course Jesus is our free
    gift through whom we are saved.
    Kelly
  9. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    19 Jun '13 16:01
    Originally posted by sonship
    The free gift is NOT eternal life.


    Why does Paul then write:

    New International Version (©2011)
    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lor ...[text shortened]... in is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    [b]?
    [/b]
    This is playing with words Jaywill. Your oneliner quote comes from Romans 6 - an entire chapter by Paul which speaks at length about those who accept Christ and then proceed to sin and do not live righteously with good works. The end of those people is death.

    A life in Christ = holiness + righteousness + good works = eternal life.

    Please read the chapter because your nonsense doctrine tells people that they can sin continuously and still get into Gods Kingdom.

    The gift of God is eternal life through Christ. If it is free the way you think, then ALL MANKIND WILL receive it. That is not the case. There is a cost to eternal life : Faith , Righteousness, Holiness & Good Works.

    Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    (Rom 6:16-23)
  10. 19 Jun '13 16:09 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    There are many of mankind of all periods in history who would not have faith and would never find salvation. Many people are given the chance to find faith and many will be destroyed.

    There is a school of thought that the Bible supports the idea that even those punished in the flood were given a chance to repent and those who did will be eventually raised ints a very complicated picture of life, death and afterlife... some of which Christ supported.
    I understand that you and others believe what you say here, but I was asking for citation of Biblical teachings to support that belief, on the question:

    Can one claim based on Biblical teachings that there are (and/or have been) some of mankind who do not eventually come to have faith and find salvation?

    You gave such citations for your other claims.
  11. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    19 Jun '13 16:19 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by JS357
    I understand that you and others believe what you say here, but I was asking for citation of Biblical teachings to support that belief, on the question:

    Can one claim based on Biblical teachings that there are (and/or have been) some of mankind who do not eventually come to have faith and find salvation?

    You gave such citations for your other claims.
    There are many will not have fath and find salvation. That is the purpose of the lake of fire. Many will be destroyed. The bible is full of such statements.

    He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 21:7-8)
  12. Standard member sonship
    the corrected one.
    19 Jun '13 17:18 / 2 edits
    This is playing with words Jaywill.


    What you wrote was directly contrary to what Paul wrote.
    I simply asked you. Now I will read carefully your entire post.

    You in turn read my entire response please.


    Your oneliner quote comes from Romans 6 - an entire chapter by Paul which speaks at length about those who accept Christ and then proceed to sin and do not live righteously with good works. The end of those people is death.


    The chapter is indeed on subjective sanctification.
    But Paul's words about the gift of eternal life directly contradict what you wrote.

    There could hardly be a more stark contrast between the sentence you wrote and the sentence Paul wrote.

    Going on about the general subject matter of chapter 6 does not much to rescue your directly contrary statement to Paul's.


    A life in Christ = holiness + righteousness + good works = eternal life.


    Man is spirit and soul and body.

    Concerning regeneration of the spirit - I have eternal life.
    Concerning transformation of the soul - I am in a process unto eternal life.
    Concerning transfiguration of the body - I am awaiting eternal life.

    So I can also say:

    1.) I have been saved.
    2.) I am being saved.
    3.) I will be saved.


    Please read the chapter because your nonsense doctrine tells people that they can sin continuously and still get into Gods Kingdom.


    You like to play hard ball. So we play hardball.

    You directly contrary statement saying the gift of God is NOT eternal life is a direct lie. It could not be more opposite of what Paul wrote - " the gift of God is eternal life "

    One hundred percent directly contrary to what the New Testament said.
    You want to play tough with me then I play tough with you.

    You LIED.

    The GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE according to Romans 6:23.

    You call what I write nonsense then I call what you write a LIE.


    The gift of God is eternal life through Christ.


    Now you are correcting the 100% contrary statement that you wrote against the word of God. It is a good start.

    What else would you add then ?

    [/b]
    If it is free the way you think, then ALL MANKIND WILL receive it.


    That is nonsense. IF all mankind will receive it then it is not gift but MANDATORY.

    Wages there is in contrast to GIFT.
    One is recompense for labor.
    The other is enjoyment of that received freely.

    What your problem really is is the matter of LIVING by eternal life.


    That is not the case. There is a cost to eternal life : Faith , Righteousness, Holiness & Good Works.


    The cost was paid for by Christ.

    If there is a cost it is the cost of denying the old life to allow the eternal life to grow and spread and saturate the soul and body.

    The cost for entering into the sanctification and transformation is recompensed by the reward of the millennial kingdom.

    Actually, Paul considers RIGHTEOUSNESS as a gift as well (Romans 5:17)

    " ... those who receive the abundance of grace and of the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." [my emphasis]


    Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


    If Paul meant by this that the gift of God is NOT eternal life then he would have written that the gift of God is NOT eternal life.

    None of what you write here makes the eternal life NOT the gift of God.
    It does speak about the possibility of not going on to be subjectively sanctified - ie. LIVING by the eternal life.

    In one sense Paul does speak about eternal life as something we are going towards, living unto, expecting as we cooperate. I am aware of all those passages much more than you think.

    But he wrote nonetheless that "the gift of God is eternal life" and you directly wrote what was diametrically opposed to that. You wrote that the gift of God is NOT eternal life.

    Direct contradiction. And I know Romans 6-8 very well. I wrote many songs to these verses. That is praying over them and putting them in song form. I know the subject matter of sanctification in both its aspects - the positional and the dispositional.


    But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


    Its all true. But because of all this Paul did not write that the there is NO GIFT of eternal life. You wrote that.


    I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    (Rom 6:16-23)


    And all of this becomes more graspable when we CONFESS that we have the gift of eternal life.

    If you want to enjoy the obedience and the sanctification and the freedom and the liberty and the transformation into the image of Christ and the sanctification the way is not by saying that there is no gift of eternal life.

    Our way to enter into the sanctification in Romans chapter 6 and chapter 8 is by STANDING on the truth that the gift of God is eternal life and not by denying it.

    Your reactionary medicine is worse than the illness you are trying to treat.

    To enter into the riches of sanctification you should AFFIRM that you are in possession of the GIFT of eternal life instead of boasting around that you deny it.
  13. 19 Jun '13 19:42
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    There are many will not have fath and find salvation. That is the purpose of the lake of fire. Many will be destroyed. The bible is full of such statements.

    He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and ...[text shortened]... in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 21:7-8)
    Is it not possible that these types of people (the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars) satisfactorily repent in their dying moment, such that they are no longer fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, or liars? Does the Bible rule out this possibility somewhere in its pages? I thought the Bible says salvation is available to all, right up to the end.
  14. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    19 Jun '13 22:03
    Originally posted by JS357
    Is it not possible that these types of people (the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars) satisfactorily repent in their dying moment, such that they are no longer fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, or liars? Does the Bible rule ou ...[text shortened]... where in its pages? I thought the Bible says salvation is available to all, right up to the end.
    It might surprise you to find out that the Bible never says that salvation is available to all until the end. Maybe thats the tag line of some of the modernday churches. There are many deceitful tricks used to draw in followers since that translates into more money.

    Here are some quotes which you can read and interpret for yourself:

    Mar_11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

    Mar_3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

    2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
    2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
  15. 19 Jun '13 23:35
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    It might surprise you to find out that the Bible never says that salvation is available to all until the end. Maybe thats the tag line of some of the modernday churches. There are many deceitful tricks used to draw in followers since that translates into more money.

    Here are some quotes which you can read and interpret for yourself:

    Mar_11:26 But ...[text shortened]... seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
    These are conditionals. If you don't forgive; if you were once enlightened, etc. It doesn't say that it actually happens.

    I think the ability of a human to say that some will and some won't be saved, even as a generality, is simply unjustified (so far) by the Biblical texts you have quoted, and by any I have found. The question of whether it justifies a human saying that all will be saved, is separate, and would depend in Bible citations that support it. I haven't seen a balanced effort on this point.