Originally posted by frogstompSince you picked up on the zen-frog-haiku connection, here's another by Basho--
of course , how else are these bozos ever gonna get knowledge?
Hey you, watermelons!
If thieves come,
Just turn into frogs...
—Basho
EDIT: I saw it attributed to Basho, but it sounds more like Issa to me...
Originally posted by jaywillThere's really nothing in your OP about which to have a discussion. You say that if one believes Jesus is alive, then that person can talk to Jesus by simply uttering his name.
This Topic was called a "Simple Way". Many of the most vital things in this universe are simple to obtain.
Air surrounds us. Unconsciously we breath it in. It is simple to do so. We don't have to have the chemical breakdown of it. It may be interesting to know it. But it is attainable and simple for most of us to breath in the air.
Some clever types ...[text shortened]... f the Lord in faith can contact the living Lord Jesus and God becomes a personal reality.
I say that if ones believes 2000+ year old religious leader is alive today, then that person will have no difficulties believing that they can speak to that figure as well.
I've been where you are today jay. I know how it feels to think you're talking to a god. If I ever feel like going back to that state, I know what to do.
What you discribe doesn't sound like the experience of Christ to me. There is nothing sensual or visual attached to my touching the life giving Spirit. There is no scent or accompanying aroma or such.
I studied zen for a time. And I think I understand that since early human civilization man has cultivated various ways to tap into latent soulical powers buried in the fallen soul. Through various techniques and disciplines people have ways to unleash the latent powers of the human soul. This belong to the area of paraphsychology and the psychic phenomenon.
In the fourth generation of mankind Genesis tells us that men began to call on the name of the Lord:
"And to Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time [men] began to call upon the name of Jehovah" (Genesis 4:26)
Enosh means something like "frail mortal man". The implication is that after the fall of the first human beings ancestors of us all, around the fourth generation people began to realize frailness and mortality of their predicament as being alienated from the Creator. They felt the sense of distance from God and the frail mortality of their own dying beings. People began not only to pray to God but to call out to God.
Now, I admit that one can assume that we can put all such reaching out to God as left brain / right brain activity. You could lump these matters all together as the various meditation techniques of parapsychology. I think it would be a mistake to do so.
I have found that it is easier for people to think of a force or vibration into which they may touch some form of "spiritual" energy then it is for them to confess Jesus Christ as their Lord. You are still "above" a force or vibration which you may "use" for your benefit. The experience of coming under the lordship and being headed up under the Lord Jesus, I think, is approached with far more caution by practically everyone.
In the case of "Lord Krishna" I will reframe from volunteering too much. However, I think there are great historical difference between the figure Krishna and Jesus of Nazareth. And since spirits are actively seeking to deceive mankind and to side track man from the ultimate reality, by way of imitation some would assume "Oh Krishna and Jesus must be the same thing."
When Moses went to deliver the Israelites from Egypt God had him perform a miracle before Pharoah. The rod of Moses was turned into a serpent. Surprisingly enough the Bible says that the magicians of ancient Egypt by their arts did the same thing. "See Moses? What you did we also can do."
This kind of tit for tat only persisted for a time then the wise men and magiciaions of Pharoah eventually told him that this was the finger of God.
I expect then that by the secret arts of the occult and of parapsychology today some would be equally led astray assuming "You see? What you do we also can do by another diety."
The Bible tells us that history culminates in a figure called the Antichrist who will come imitating some of the major aspects of the Son of God. So I think you'd better be certain before you mix Christ and Krishna and Transcendental Meditation and Zen all in the same bag together.
Sometimes these occultic disciplines do invade Christianity. That does make things very confusing indeed. But I think it is impossible to imitate the genuine experience of the resurrected and living Jesus.
Originally posted by telerion"Been there and done that" testimonials for some reason don't impress me that much.
There's really nothing in your OP about which to have a discussion. You say that if one believes Jesus is alive, then that person can talk to Jesus by simply uttering his name.
I say that if ones believes 2000+ year old religious leader is alive today, then that person will have no difficulties believing that they can speak to that figure as well.
nk you're talking to a god. If I ever feel like going back to that state, I know what to do.
I guess basically I trust the integrity of Christ and the New Testament over these kinds of "Been there, done that" testimonials.
Christ became in a form in which we could join our spirit to Him - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45). Everytime I touch Christ within He gives me life. He is really the life giving Spirit.
Where He takes me I would never go on my own accord. What He develops within me I would not in most cases desire to develop in myself because my fallen flesh likes sinful living too much.
What He causes to grow within me I had no ability to grow within myself. In myself I would not be made holy or be sanctified because of the sheer enjoyment of sin. Yet there is sanctification and holiness growing in me and regulating my behavior freeing me from the love of sins.
I think that if in the end the impossible were to happen and I was to find out the Jesus really was not Son of God and resurrected as the life giving Spirit, this still would have been the best possible way for me to have lived.
In myself I don't love God. But the love of the Father is growing within me. I think the source is Christ Who about Whom it is written:
"Judas, not Iscariot, said to Him, Lord, and what has happened that You are to manifest Yourself to us and not to the world?
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him" (John 14:22,23).
I think I have experienced that. That is that the Triune God with the Father and the Son have come to make an abode within me. And I have the confirmation of thousands today who are having the same experience. What a oneness and a corporate unity we share.
So you say "I know ALL about it. I've been there and I am now out".
I don't think I'll follow you in this regard. How do I really know? I think I trust Christ's word over yours. Sorry.
Originally posted by jaywillYou merely want to witness, not to discuss.
"Been there and done that" testimonials for some reason don't impress me that much.
I guess basically I trust the integrity of Christ and the New Testament over these kinds of "Been there, done that" testimonials.
Christ became in a form in which we could join our spirit to Him - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45). Everyti ...[text shortened]... s regard. How do I really know? I think I trust Christ's word over yours. Sorry.
Do we need at witnessing thread?
Originally posted by jaywillWhat you discribe doesn't sound like the experience of Christ to me. There is nothing sensual or visual attached to my touching the life giving Spirit. There is no scent or accompanying aroma or such.
What you discribe doesn't sound like the experience of Christ to me. There is nothing sensual or visual attached to my touching the life giving Spirit. There is no scent or accompanying aroma or such.
I studied zen for a time. And I think I understand that since early human civilization man has cultivated various ways to tap into latent soulical powers ...[text shortened]... sible to imitate the genuine experience of the resurrected and living Jesus.
Not all such experiences have the same elements; some are simply rich with emotional content, for example. Also, some people describe any visual or auditory experiences in very much an “as if” way—e.g., someone might say, it was as if he spoke to me, but I really don’t hear voices, etc.
The question is why, for yourself, you assign that experience as one of Christ (that is, I mean a question for your own self-inquiry—certainly not as something that you ought to think you have to convince me of). There might be many reasons: upbringing, environment, recent studies, etc., that might lead your mind to translate that experience as Christ, whereas someone else might translate it into Vishnu. You can, of course, automatically dismiss an experience that might be in all ways exactly like yours, except that it is attributed to Vishnu instead of Christ, simply because you decide that all other such experiences must be false (or, indeed, decide that they couldn’t possibly be like yours in all other ways).
Now, I admit that one can assume that we can put all such reaching out to God as left brain / right brain activity. You could lump these matters all together as the various meditation techniques of parapsychology. I think it would be a mistake to do so.
My main point is that I think it is a mistake—and a dangerous one—to assume that such experience must be of a supernatural nature (pun intended). My only call is for people to exercise some intellectual restraint and honest self-critical inquiry. I have known people (close friends, which we remained) who had such experiences that, in the end, they concluded was an experience of the risen Christ—but they were willing to subject themselves to a great deal of ongoing self-inquiry, and did not mind honest challenges from others but rather welcomed them.
BTW, I do not put Zen in the “parapsychology” category, since Zen explicitly rejects paranormal and occultic experiences.
I have found that it is easier for people to think of a force or vibration into which they may touch some form of "spiritual" energy then it is for them to confess Jesus Christ as their Lord. You are still "above" a force or vibration which you may "use" for your benefit. The experience of coming under the lordship and being headed up under the Lord Jesus, I think, is approached with far more caution by practically everyone.
Interesting. I have found almost universally the exact opposite—that is, people who grow up in an environment fully enculturated with a Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or Hindu) worldview, tend to find it quite challenging, difficult, uncomfortable and often even terrifying to let it go. And even among those who change particular religious “affiliations” there is often a tendency toward escapism in the sense of seeking a higher authority to which to submit, in order to avoid the existential burden of self-responsibility.
Now, I have seen the opposing cases, such as you speak of, as well, and I accuse neither you nor any other particular person on here of such escapist motivation, consciously or otherwise.
So I think you'd better be certain before you mix Christ and Krishna and Transcendental Meditation and Zen all in the same bag together.
I certainly do not mix them all in the same bag. Again, Zen does not have anything to do with the supernatural. It is quite as possible to be a Zen Christian as it is to be a Zen Buddhist, if those are the particular worldviews you want to add on to it.
As for your choice for Christ, May it be for you and others a path of blessing.
Originally posted by jaywillTo open the eyes of stupid people. You're first matey.
Scottishshinnz,
I call on the Lord Jesus Christ and I know why I breath, why my heart beats and why I exist.
Why don't you wake up from your sleep and tell us all why you are alive. What is the purpose of your life here in the universe?
Do you know?
Originally posted by scottishinnzHistory knows of Jesus Christ. Why don't you if you're so smart?
Please, tell me, why do you feel the need to invent yourself an imaginary friend?
The words of Jesus are difficult to ignore. He is not so easily dismissed.
"Behold I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age" (Matt. 28:20).
As far as Matthew's gospel and John's gospel are concerned they never say that He went anywhere after His resurrection. Though Mark and Luke record an ascension into the heavens Matthew and John end without the sense of Him going away.
He taught "I am the resurrection and the life ...". That is a pretty bold assertion. Resurrection from death is Him. And the uncreated divine life of God is Him.
Christ is believable. Christ is the most believable Person I have ever met.