13 Feb '10 10:38>3 edits
Originally posted by FreakyKBHPresumably, the ingredients are unimportant, it is the potpourri's overall smell we are after? If the 'it' that we are after is ineffable, who's to say that we ever successfully reach it? It almost sounds as though you are contending that God Himself is ineffable... which, although it shares elements of the sentiment 'through the glass darkly,' its overall meaning is something altogether different.
I realize you received the ultimate prize in these here parts, the virtual pat on the back from bbarr, but I find myself as the proverbial fly in the ointment on this one.
[b]Actually, my contention is that locutions like 'God is compassionate' should elicit a whole host of feelings, dispositions, images and judgments which, in their entirety, constitut pedic Play-Doh, well, we're going to have some irreconcilable differences.[/b]
Well, yes, it is the overall effect, the 'it', the indescribable 'wow'. This is exactly what ineffable means. God's nature transcends all human language. And from a Christian perspective, this makes sense. Language emerges within a social order, in creation, and if God is really above and beyond creation, language could never encapsulate the divine essence.
Those types of locutions, or did you have something else in mind? The fact of the matter is, God has obviously used our own frame of reference in describing Himself and the situation to man. When God is described using certain attributes, He has done so knowing that there already exists an inherent understanding of the concepts used, irrespective of the perfection of said understanding.
I agree. The fact is that Christianity is uniquely incarnational and sacramental. God comes into the universe and reveals Himself as a person; He fills people with grace and mediates grace through ordinary forms, water and bread as baptism and Eucharist. But when it coms to God's nature, something which exists outside and above creation, language cannot describe Him. It might evoke or elicit something which touches on God; but it cannot express it exactly.
I must again inquire regarding the exact locutions to which you refer as construed as 'fictional stories or poems.' If you mean the allegories used by the Lord Jesus Christ, well, duh. If, however, you mean that all of Scripture is meant to be a malleable encyclopedic Play-Doh, well, we're going to have some irreconcilable differences.
Well, no. What I mean is that statements regarding God's nature cannot be taken like formal language. We should be cautious of interpreting any serious propositional content. As for His activity in salvation history and revelation to mankind, I am not in any dispute with you. It is precisely what Christianity means that we can talk about God on a personal basis, as a someone, as something incarnate in the world and interacting with humanity. I just think that caution must be exercised when we discuss His divine nature and other mysteries.
This touches on a broader point that I would like to discuss, religion emerges in a culture and is culturally mediated. To use an example from my religion, as a Catholic, I believe that Jesus Christ is mysteriously present in the Eucharist. Now when I discuss this doctrine with non-Catholics, I can clarify with philosophical explanations to solve any formal logical difficulties -- yet every time there is always a dumbfounded 'What does that mean? What on earth is transsubstantiation?' The fact is that my understanding of the real presence of Jesus Christ is not learned from philosophical description but from culture. We kneel on both knees and bow in front of the Eucharist, we parade it through the streets and serenade it with music, we ring bells at the consecration, we incence the Eucharist at benedictions, we sing hymns and special prayers and sometimes we kneel and receive it on the tongue. It is in fact these cultural practices which eventually evoke this sense of Christ's ineffable presence. The presence, like God's essence, cannot be described exactlty by language; rather, language and culture are exploited to evoke it.