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    02 Feb '10 18:59
    Since God is omnipotent and has no beginning then he knew for eternity which of his creations would get into heaven and those who wouldn't. If he always knew this and he loves us as much as the bible says, why would he condemn so many to an existence of eternal suffering?
  2. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    02 Feb '10 19:58
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    Since God is omnipotent and has no beginning then he knew for eternity which of his creations would get into heaven and those who wouldn't. If he always knew this and he loves us as much as the bible says, why would he condemn so many to an existence of eternal suffering?
    IMO there is no such thing as eternal suffering, only transient suffering which will be alleviated when all beings reach Nirvana.
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    02 Feb '10 20:08
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    Since God is omnipotent and has no beginning then he knew for eternity which of his creations would get into heaven and those who wouldn't. If he always knew this and he loves us as much as the bible says, why would he condemn so many to an existence of eternal suffering?
    I don't think that "... God is omnipotent and has no beginning then he knew for eternity which of his creations would get into heaven and those who wouldn't...". Further, a great many stories in the OT do not support this view of God.
  4. Illinois
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    02 Feb '10 21:30
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    Since God is omnipotent and has no beginning then he knew for eternity which of his creations would get into heaven and those who wouldn't. If he always knew this and he loves us as much as the bible says, why would he condemn so many to an existence of eternal suffering?
    God is sovereign. We can question why God does things a certain way, but what do we gain by doing so, if in the end God's will always prevails?
  5. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    02 Feb '10 23:27
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    God is sovereign. We can question why God does things a certain way, but what do we gain by doing so, if in the end God's will always prevails?
    We gain the ability to dispense with silly notions like "God is love" and instead focus on the true reason for doing as he says: Fear.
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    02 Feb '10 23:461 edit
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    Since God is omnipotent and has no beginning then he knew for eternity which of his creations would get into heaven and those who wouldn't. If he always knew this and he loves us as much as the bible says, why would he condemn so many to an existence of eternal suffering?
    there is no way a God of love and justice would allow persons, in an imperfect state, to be tortured eternally for misdemeanours covering seventy years. Does that strike you as just? no me neither. It is out of character with his scripturally revealed attributes. the whole idea of eternal torment hinges upon a few misunderstood and mistranslated verses, borrowed from Hellenistic mythology, taken out of context and ruthlessly applied to support a cruel and unjust dogma. One must of course ignore ninety nine percent of the biblical revelation in order to accommodate it, but hey, its not stopped them before.
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    03 Feb '10 00:21
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    We gain the ability to dispense with silly notions like "God is love" and instead focus on the true reason for doing as he says: Fear.
    mmm, not quite my learned friend, it would seem that love is more potent,

    (1 John 4:18) . . .There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love.

    but point taken, i am sure there are many who are motivated by a sense of fear and tyranny.
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    03 Feb '10 00:37
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    We gain the ability to dispense with silly notions like "God is love" and instead focus on the true reason for doing as he says: Fear.
    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" (Psalm 111:10).
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    03 Feb '10 01:31
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" (Psalm 111:10).
    yes but this is a healthy reverence not fear as in morbid terror of being torched alive for eternity and poked with big sticks by the devil to make sure were still alive and suffering pain to the maximum degree.
  10. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    03 Feb '10 01:59
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" (Psalm 111:10).
    Yes, that verse can stay in. It's just some of the others that have to go.
  11. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    03 Feb '10 02:02
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    mmm, not quite my learned friend, it would seem that love is more potent,

    (1 John 4:18) . . .There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love.

    but point taken, i am sure there are many who are motivated by a sense of fear and tyranny.
    In context of the thread, I refer to a God who condemns people to eternal torment. Such a God is not love, nor loving, nor compassionate.

    Followers of that kind of God must be primarily motivated by fear.
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    03 Feb '10 02:252 edits
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    In context of the thread, I refer to a God who condemns people to eternal torment. Such a God is not love, nor loving, nor compassionate.

    Followers of that kind of God must be primarily motivated by fear.
    i dunno, it could be motivated by a kind of self righteousness, a kind of its your own fault, dont say we didn't warn you. i truly believe that those who profess such an idea must either suppress their humanity or have it supplanted by some sense of twisted justice. it hard to fathom. There are ones on the forum who quite sincerely believe that we are in imminent danger of undergoing eternal torment and dont take it lightly. They have even offered to pray for me which i thought was very kind. 🙂 Perhaps we could ask them what they are motivated by.
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    03 Feb '10 05:201 edit
    My point is, God is the way he is (holy) regardless of whether or not we like him that way, and God does what he does (judge) regardless of whether or not we think his way is right. He is sovereign, after all. God, if he is God, couldn't be otherwise.

    It doesn't matter what we think is right or wrong. God is judge. Statements like, "A loving God wouldn't do this...", or, "A compassionate God wouldn't do that...", are simply unqualified statements. How do you know what God would or would not do? These are statements faithless people use to justify their unbelief, and when, in secret, they let themselves entertain the idea that God might exist, they use the same rationale to form a defensive wall (hardened heart) of self-righteous indignation against their would-be Father.

    Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom precisely because it is that elemental fear, that confrontation with the reality of God's impending judgment, which spurs a person to repent and get right with God. It is a terrible and fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Heb. 10:31).
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    03 Feb '10 06:121 edit
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    My point is, God is the way he is (holy) regardless of whether or not we like him that way, and God does what he does (judge) regardless of whether or not we think his way is right. He is sovereign, after all. God, if he is God, couldn't be otherwise.

    It doesn't matter what we think is right or wrong. God is judge. Statements is a terrible and fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Heb. 10:31).
    Actually the definition of holy is sanctified, set aside for a specific purpose, clean, what this has got to do with a reverential respect for God i do not know, anyhow, these statements are not unqualified, quite the contrary, for the scriptures reveal a personality, a just and loving personality.

    secondly we as humans are endowed with a sense of justice, a God given sense of justice because we are made in Gods image. We exercise that sense of justice, we feel incensed when it is encroached upon. To state that God is judge and that is final is a betrayal of a lack of knowledge of his personality. Was he not even prepared to listen to Abraham, a human concerning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Now if we can exercise justice, to what superlative degree would God also exercise justice, perfectly balanced with love, and power and wisdom. Are we to seriously assume that he would therefore torture individuals for an eternity for certain misdemeanour's while living in an imperfect state for seventy or eighty years? Does that strike you as just? No me neither. Neither is it simply a case of what we believe, as you erroneously assume forms the basis of our argument, it is, as i have constantly maintained, inconsistent with his revealed personality as is recorded in the sacred text.
  15. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    03 Feb '10 06:461 edit
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    My point is, God is the way he is (holy) regardless of whether or not we like him that way, and God does what he does (judge) regardless of whether or not we think his way is right. He is sovereign, after all. God, if he is God, couldn't be otherwise.

    It doesn't matter what we think is right or wrong. God is judge. Statements is a terrible and fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Heb. 10:31).
    Thought experiment.

    "A compassionate police officer would not beat Rodney King with a nightstick while he lies motionless on the ground."

    Unqualified statement?
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