15 Dec 08
Originally posted by ZahlanziOmnipotent implies he is all powerful, that does not mean there are
omnipotent implies there is nothing he cannot do. so if i find something he cannot do, he is not omnipotent correct?
like it was said in another thread, can god create an immovable object AND an unstoppable force?
some say god is good and everything he does is good, he has a plan. can god be evil then?
can god destroy himself?
therefore he is not omnipotent, just very very powerful.
not things God cannot do. I submit if it can be done, God can do it,
but drawing a square circle, no, I guess with the straight line logic
some people have, maybe He can even do that. He will not lie, which
is He will not go against His nature or Word.
Kelly
15 Dec 08
Originally posted by KellyJaythen he is not all powerfull but almost all powerful
Omnipotent implies he is all powerful, that does not mean there are
not things God cannot do. I submit if it can be done, God can do it,
but drawing a square circle, no, I guess with the straight line logic
some people have, maybe He can even do that. He will not lie, which
is He will not go against His nature or Word.
Kelly
"he will not go against his nature or word". would you say he went against his nature when he ordered abraham to kill his son? all the times he helped the jews in their battles and caused harm to the other nations, does that constitute as a violation to his good nature? the fact that he ordered the pagans killed instead of converted through good example as jesus later preached, does that constitutes a violation of his nature?
and those are just the things in the bible. i could also mention all the creation myths that you take for granted. but i would waste my time since what a 3000 year old jewish savage says god said trumps anything a PHD could discover after years of research and logic.
15 Dec 08
Originally posted by ZahlanziNot true, power does not mean you can get everything done, what if
then he is not all powerfull but almost all powerful
"he will not go against his nature or word". would you say he went against his nature when he ordered abraham to kill his son? all the times he helped the jews in their battles and caused harm to the other nations, does that constitute as a violation to his good nature? the fact that he ordered the pag ...[text shortened]... h savage says god said trumps anything a PHD could discover after years of research and logic.
something required no power to acquire the result needed or desired?
For example, if you have a will to act as you desire and God has the
power to MAKE you do something He wants it is than God forcing you
to do it; however, if choices are given you and you pick and choose
things that could make you go one way or another it is your choice
not God that is making you do those things.
Kelly
15 Dec 08
I told a kid once that "I could do everything, without exceptions, literary everything, if I wanted to".
He asked me "Can you lift a rock weighing a tonne?"
I said "Yes". "Then show me!" And I answered "I don't want to lift a rock weighing one tonne."
He asked me "Can you solve the energy crisis?"
I said "Yes". "Then how?" And I answered "I don't solve the energy crisis."
I see god doing the same thing. He can do everything, he is omnipotent, but he doesn't want to.
The important words here are "if he wants to" and "doesn't want to."
16 Dec 08
Originally posted by KellyJaypower does not mean you can get everything done.
Not true, power does not mean you can get everything done, what if
something required no power to acquire the result needed or desired?
For example, if you have a will to act as you desire and God has the
power to MAKE you do something He wants it is than God forcing you
to do it; however, if choices are given you and you pick and choose
things that co ...[text shortened]... you go one way or another it is your choice
not God that is making you do those things.
Kelly
absolute power however does. the fact that god will not lie because it is not in his nature doesn't mean he cannot. it is irrelevant if god wishes or not to perform an action. if he is capable, he is capable even if he will never ever commit it. however, if there is an action which we know he will not be able to perform no matter how much he wills it then we cannot consider him omnipotent.
god cannot create an immovable object AND an unstoppable force. god cannot create either one of them without contradicting his omnipotence. if he creates an immovable object, will he be able to move it?
16 Dec 08
1 edit
Originally posted by FabianFnasThis, too, is an important point (aside from our arguments about what omnipotence actually means, or is taken to mean).
I told a kid once that "I could do everything, without exceptions, literary everything, if I wanted to".
He asked me "Can you lift a rock weighing a tonne?"
I said "Yes". "Then show me!" And I answered "I don't want to lift a rock weighing one tonne."
He asked me "Can you solve the energy crisis?"
I said "Yes". "Then how?" And I answered "I don't
The important words here are "if he wants to" and "doesn't want to."
With regard to any theological claims about God’s decisions/activity:
(1) God wants to, can, and does; or
(2) God can, but doesn’t want to, and so doesn’t; or
(3) God wants to, but can’t, and so doesn’t.
Different theologies choose differently, but all either choose or collapse into nonsense. There are lots lof arguments that might be put forward for a given choice (e.g., free-will arguments); but they only explain the choice, they don't overcome it.
18 Dec 08
Originally posted by ZahlanziAs I explained, power or limitless power does not help another have
power does not mean you can get everything done.
absolute power however does. the fact that god will not lie because it is not in his nature doesn't mean he cannot. it is irrelevant if god wishes or not to perform an action. if he is capable, he is capable even if he will never ever commit it. however, if there is an action which we know he will not be ...[text shortened]... t contradicting his omnipotence. if he creates an immovable object, will he be able to move it?
the ability to do as they will, that requires restraint. I don't view what
you describe as reality, for me if it can be done God can do it.
Kelly
18 Dec 08
Originally posted by ZahlanziMerriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition
power does not mean you can get everything done.
absolute power however does. the fact that god will not lie because it is not in his nature doesn't mean he cannot. it is irrelevant if god wishes or not to perform an action. if he is capable, he is capable even if he will never ever commit it. however, if there is an action which we know he will not be ...[text shortened]... t contradicting his omnipotence. if he creates an immovable object, will he be able to move it?
omnipotent:
1. almighty
2. having virtually unlimited authority or influence
What's the debate? KellyJay's use of the word is compatible with the definition.
About the immovable object meets unstoppable force discussion. It's not possible, just like "square triangles" aren't possible.
18 Dec 08
Originally posted by Electric Redomnipotence doesn't mean the ability to do all if the conditions are right, if logic permits it. it means the ability to do all. it is an impossibility. as your dictionary says, "being almighty"
The very definition of omnipotent is bound by logic. It's intrinsic, and all meaning is lost if you discard logic. Absolute power. 100 percent. You cannot have more than the whole.
you say "that thing is impossible, nobody could do it, so it doesn't count as a thing god can't do" and you basically make my, our, point. there is a thing god cannot do. by your logic atheists are omnipotent even if they cannot lift an object with their minds because that is impossible and nobody could do it anyway.
in the beginning there was nothing and god created something out of nothing. impossible? apparently not.
what else must god not be able to do to be considered less than omnipotent.
18 Dec 08
Originally posted by AgergGod has existed before our preceptition of time, and will live for the rest of eternity. It is deeper than our understanding, so don't worry about it. 😏
Some say your god is timeless...given the unsophisticated view that this god independently of our timeline [b]does everything at once, where does he ahem...'find the time' to get things done?[/b]