1. Joined
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    06 Mar '08 14:54
    Would anyone here consider it unreasonable to suggest that a truly loving God should never have created life in the first place? By the very act of creating a being that he knows will not worship or believe in him he effectively condems them to an eternity of torture if we are to assume Christianity correct. Any argument about free will is irrelevant. We havn't given been given a choice about whether we wish to choose or not. The act of creating us forces us to choose one way or the other. So God creates people that he knows will go to hell. What is the point in this? Why not leave them in the eternal oblivion of non existance? And why should we not have a choice in whether our awarness continues after our death?
    If we accept Christianity then life is an insignifacant blip compared to the enternity of death. Therefore God creates some beings he knows will spend enternity in bliss and some that will spend eternity in hell. If I was to end up in hell I'd much prefer to never have existed.
  2. Joined
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    06 Mar '08 19:57
    Originally posted by Jake Ellison
    Would anyone here consider it unreasonable to suggest that a truly loving God should never have created life in the first place? By the very act of creating a being that he knows will not worship or believe in him he effectively condems them to an eternity of torture if we are to assume Christianity correct. Any argument about free will is irrelevant. W ...[text shortened]... will spend eternity in hell. If I was to end up in hell I'd much prefer to never have existed.
    It's reasonable to say that.
    All that heaven/hell/sin/free will talk is so outdated it makes me sick someone actually believes it. How naive people are?
  3. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    2014.05.01
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    06 Mar '08 21:14
    Originally posted by Jake Ellison
    Would anyone here consider it unreasonable to suggest that a truly loving God should never have created life in the first place? By the very act of creating a being that he knows will not worship or believe in him he effectively condems them to an eternity of torture if we are to assume Christianity correct. Any argument about free will is irrelevant. W ...[text shortened]... will spend eternity in hell. If I was to end up in hell I'd much prefer to never have existed.
    Eternal Hell is the ultimate scare tactic. If you can get them to believe out of fear, they probably won't notice the logical flaws.
  4. Joined
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    06 Mar '08 21:26
    Originally posted by Jake Ellison
    ....in the eternal oblivion of non existance?....
    you mean if they get naturally selected out?
  5. Standard memberspruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
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    06 Mar '08 21:281 edit
    Originally posted by Jake Ellison
    Would anyone here consider it unreasonable to suggest that a truly loving God should never have created life in the first place? By the very act of creating a being that he knows will not worship or believe in him he effectively condems them to an eternity of torture if we are to assume Christianity correct. Any argument about free will is irrelevant. W will spend eternity in hell. If I was to end up in hell I'd much prefer to never have existed.
    God is like your Dad viewed from age 4. All-powerful, all-knowing. Truly loving? Of course -- until you do something wrong and then he is VERY, VERY ANGRY😠

    But eventually, he forgives you, of course.

    Of course your worship Him. Of course you believe in Him.

    Is it possible that your parents would withdraw their love? Yes -- almost unimaginable, but yes. What Hell that would be. On the other hand if they always loved you and took care of you, wouldn't that be Heaven?

    Of course, things never carry on that way forever. One day, about age 18, we eat of the fruit, discover sex, and get thrown out of the house -- the kids have to leave and make it on their own. THAT's when we discover the true sorrows of existence.

    Christianity is not about some supernatural phenomenon. It's about understanding who We are. That's what all religions are about. That's why interpreting religion as either literally true or absolutely false and worthless are just two (opposite) ways of misunderstanding what it is all about.
  6. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
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    06 Mar '08 22:25
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    God is like your Dad viewed from age 4. All-powerful, all-knowing. Truly loving? Of course -- until you do something wrong and then he is VERY, VERY ANGRY😠

    But eventually, he forgives you, of course.

    Of course your worship Him. Of course you believe in Him.

    Is it possible that your parents would withdraw their love? Yes -- almost unimaginable, ...[text shortened]... false and worthless are just two (opposite) ways of misunderstanding what it is all about.
    My dad never drowned almost the entire population of the earth. He never killed a bunch of Egyptians either. Come to think of it, my dad seems like a pretty even tempered guy compared to your god.
  7. Joined
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    06 Mar '08 22:43
    Of course, things never carry on that way forever. One day, about age 18, we eat of the fruit, discover sex,

    18??? Only in america...
  8. Standard membertelerion
    True X X Xian
    The Lord's Army
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    06 Mar '08 23:13
    Originally posted by Jake Ellison
    Would anyone here consider it unreasonable to suggest that a truly loving God should never have created life in the first place? By the very act of creating a being that he knows will not worship or believe in him he effectively condems them to an eternity of torture if we are to assume Christianity correct. Any argument about free will is irrelevant. W ...[text shortened]... will spend eternity in hell. If I was to end up in hell I'd much prefer to never have existed.
    Yes. I've been through that argument several times on these board. So far few Christians have really been able to grasp it.
  9. Joined
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    07 Mar '08 05:28
    Originally posted by serigado
    [b]Of course, things never carry on that way forever. One day, about age 18, we eat of the fruit, discover sex,

    18??? Only in america...[/b]
    most places in the u.s. nowadays, its about 12 😕
  10. Standard memberspruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
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    07 Mar '08 07:24
    Originally posted by rwingett
    My dad never drowned almost the entire population of the earth. He never killed a bunch of Egyptians either. Come to think of it, my dad seems like a pretty even tempered guy compared to your god.
    Literalism. I recognize that.

    It's allegorical.

    I once read a rather interesting account of Moses as a military commander and what the parting of the Red Sea might have signified -- Egyptian chariots getting mired in a swampy area of the Sinai. Pure speculation, but interesting.
  11. Standard memberspruce112358
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    07 Mar '08 07:391 edit
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    most places in the u.s. nowadays, its about 12 😕
    Frightening that a 12 year old should have to figure that out.

    Religion is about Inner Space, not Outer Space. It's about how are you going to order YOUR life

    (Note to the Vatican: it is NOT about how to order the lives of those around you! That's politics. Play it if you want, but don't call it religion.)

    Religion can be quite a useful thing, psychologically.

    Of course, historically and even today, a lot of people are more comfortable with a certain level of mysticism incorporated into their religion. It is a link back to those childlike days before rationality set in and the world became hard and serious. It can be very good to have that mindset -- kids are so much more resilient than adults, heal so much more quickly, have so much more energy, etc. -- as long as you dial it to the level that doesn't interfere with your rational half. For example, I actually like that I cannnot prove or disprove that the Inner Voice I hear when I meditate is God or my subconscious. It might be either, and that is where I let the matter drop.
  12. Cape Town
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    07 Mar '08 08:30
    Originally posted by Jake Ellison
    Why not leave them in the eternal oblivion of non existance? And why should we not have a choice in whether our awarness continues after our death?
    A very good question. Just to clarify the bit that I would love to see some theists answer:
    I realize that entry into heaven for a terrible soul like mine is questionable, but if God is omnipotent and loving, is he capable of terminating our existence before entry to hell? If so, why does he not do so?
  13. Standard membercaissad4
    Child of the Novelty
    San Antonio, Texas
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    07 Mar '08 08:32
    Originally posted by rwingett
    My dad never drowned almost the entire population of the earth. He never killed a bunch of Egyptians either. Come to think of it, my dad seems like a pretty even tempered guy compared to your god.
    Exodus is a myth.
  14. Cape Town
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    07 Mar '08 11:33
    Originally posted by rwingett
    My dad never drowned almost the entire population of the earth. He never killed a bunch of Egyptians either. Come to think of it, my dad seems like a pretty even tempered guy compared to your god.
    That is a strawman. You see, if God exists, then killing, especially when committed by God is not necessarily a bad thing. Also, almost all death can be laid at Gods feet (except possibly suicide or murder which is why God frowns on them) and thus it is unnecessary and misleading to quote particular examples from the Bible that are only horrendous when viewed from the perspective of an analogy where God is a human being.
    If heaven exists, and is really a more pleasurable place than the earth then the younger and less painfully you die the better.
  15. Territories Unknown
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    07 Mar '08 12:09
    Originally posted by Jake Ellison
    Would anyone here consider it unreasonable to suggest that a truly loving God should never have created life in the first place? By the very act of creating a being that he knows will not worship or believe in him he effectively condems them to an eternity of torture if we are to assume Christianity correct. Any argument about free will is irrelevant. W ...[text shortened]... will spend eternity in hell. If I was to end up in hell I'd much prefer to never have existed.
    Let's see if I have this straight. You understand the choice that you have (i.e., between God's system and any other system), you understand the results of both choices and yet your altruistic nature has somehow transcended even God's love--- so concerned are you for the nameless countless masses--- that you have no choice BUT to reject God's system on account of your superior-to-His sense of love.

    It is highly doubtful that the lunacy involved in such illogical thinking--- rife with boneheaded assumptions and warped values--- will be evident to you anytime soon. But, you heard it here first: you are wrong on practically every point other than spelling. Even there you failed, only not as much.
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