15 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by dottewellEh? Just because there are premises doesn't mean one can't use reason to move from those premises.
Eh? Just because there are premises doesn't mean one can't use reason to move from those premises.
Unfortunately even when shown an obvious moral truth (e.g. it is wrong to murder an innocent person, to commit genocide, etc.) you cannot recognise it as such.
I don't know why, if you believe what you say, you participate in moral debates. Your presence here is an _inconsistency_.
Yes and that is what I am doing by saying the premise itself is based on nothing but belief instead of facts.
Unfortunately even when shown an obvious moral truth (e.g. it is wrong to murder an innocent person, to commit genocide, etc.) you cannot recognise it as such.
Of course I believe that murder is wrong but unlike you I am willing to admit that this is only based on a feeling and not on objective evidence.
I don't know why, if you believe what you say, you participate in moral debates. Your presence here is an _inconsistency_.
No, because you people still believe in morality so im here to clear up the misunderstanding.
I think you know what I am saying dottewell. You just dont want to accept it, like a theist not wanting to accept that his belief is not supported by evidence.
15 Nov 05
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboardYes and that is what I am doing by saying the premise itself is based on nothing but belief instead of facts.
That e.g. murder is wrong is a fact. It permits of no deeper analysis. But it is still a fact.
Of course I believe that murder is wrong but unlike you I am willing to admit that this is only based on a feeling and not on objective evidence.
Why do you assume all facts have to be based on "objective evidence", and what does this mean? You can show people moral truths, much as you can show them e.g. the effects of dropping sodium into water. They are universally acknowledged (much more so than many e.g. scientific facts.) And if your belief that murder is wrong is based only on "a feeling", and you do not consider that to be a proper grounding, then FOLLOW THAT THOUGHT PROCESS THROUGH. You have no morality. Why not live like it?
I think you know what I am saying dottewell. You just dont want to accept it, like a theist not wanting to accept that his belief is not supported by evidence.
No; I don't think what you are saying is meaningful. I would describe it as trying to pull the rug from under your feet while you are standing on it, or kicking away a ladder you are climbing.
15 Nov 05
2 edits
Originally posted by dottewellYou are being unreasonable, for a theist it is a fact that god exist and he uses your reasoning.
[b]Yes and that is what I am doing by saying the premise itself is based on nothing but belief instead of facts.
That e.g. murder is wrong is a fact. It permits of no deeper analysis. But it is still a fact.
Of course I believe that murder is wrong but unlike you I am willing to admit that this is only based on a feeling and not on objective evi ...[text shortened]... ug from under your feet while you are standing on it, or kicking away a ladder you are climbing.
If it is a fact that murder is wrong then why are the amercan soldiers in iraq actively murdering iraqi citizens?
If it is a fact that murder is wrong then why are tigers murdering other animals?
If it is a fact that murder is wrong then why are you murdering animals for meat?
If it is a fact that abortion is ok then why are we debating this?
Science bases its facts on obsevable evidence. Religion bases its on imagination. You have made yourself a new religion. I dont debate with religious people because faith conflicts with reason, have a nice day.😉
16 Nov 05
What is truth? A powerful question once asked when Jesus was
standing trial. Do you always know what it is when looking at it?
Do you know how to divide reality and vanity? What is a false
truth, and a real one when it comes to abortion? Well one word
thrown about here was "personhood" it is the level of worth some
here believe one must have before they will in their minds grant
value or worth to a life. The word is only in their minds, it is not
real, it is a thought. While they discuss the values of life at the
many levels of development that all life goes through, the fact
that something 'real' a human life is ended with each abortion.
Not a thought, not a made up word like "personhood", but a living
being is destroyed while they play mind games. The universe
is discussed in committees and forums, and they are okay with
the death of babies, because those deaths do not meet their
personal tastes of what is important and what isn’t. Life is what
it is, to kill it, is to kill a life, no matter when you choose to
kill it, and how you describe the act of killing that life, be it with
the word abortion, killing, or murder, they are just words to
describe one thing, death caused by another.
Kelly
16 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboardYou are being unreasonable, for a theist it is a fact that god exist and he uses your reasoning.
You are being unreasonable, for a theist it is a fact that god exist and he uses your reasoning.
If it is a fact that murder is wrong then why are the amercan soldiers in iraq actively murdering iraqi citizens?
If it is a fact that murder is wrong then why are tigers murdering other animals?
If it is a fact that murder is wrong then why are ...[text shortened]... ion. I dont debate with religious people because faith conflicts with reason, have a nice day.😉
I am not using reasoning. I am stating/showing a fact.
why are the amercan soldiers in iraq actively murdering iraqi citizens?
- Why do you think there is so much moral debate about whether the Iraq war was right or wrong? And if a soldier literally murdered an Iraqi citizen in cold blood with no provocation, don't you think all sides would agree he was wrong? Would he not, in fact, be wrong?
If it is a fact that murder is wrong then why are tigers murdering other animals?
Tigers are not capable of moral reasoning and are not bound by morality as humans are.
why are you murdering animals for meat?
How do you know that? But "murder" is the wrong word for killing animals - the worth of an animal is not the same, in my view, to that of a human being.
If it is a fact that abortion is ok then why are we debating this?
I don't think it is self-evident that abortion is "ok". There are important questions about what it means to be a person, when personhood is obtained, the potential consequences of abortion, etc. etc.
16 Nov 05
3 edits
Originally posted by Bosse de NageWhere did I say that? The question is whether you accept as your premises certain basic moral facts.
Dottewell, how does one reason without premises?
LOTC believes these do no exist and draws the parallel with a theist claiming God's existence as a "fact".
Unfortunately this does not permit of debate. I am not "claiming the truth" of moral facts. If anything I am trying to point at them.
He needs to see that moral facts are built into everything we say and do in a way belief in God is not. Moral facts can be described and shown but not "defended" in the way he seems to want.
16 Nov 05
Originally posted by Bosse de NageAh, sorry. Am feeling impatient this morning. I think its all the talk of "formal logic", "ad hominem arguments", "fallacies", blah blah blah blah blah. It's like its being used as a smokescreen to prevent genuine constructive debate.
You didn't, LOTC did. Seems a load of rubbish to me but I'm not very well up on formal logic (as you know) so I was wondering if he had a point.
I see your point entirely & would add that your posts always seem logical and crystal clear to me (even those in threads about penis size etc.).
16 Nov 05
Originally posted by dottewellHere are some new facts for you to prove wrong, I have just made them up like you do.
[b]You are being unreasonable, for a theist it is a fact that god exist and he uses your reasoning.
I am not using reasoning. I am stating/showing a fact.
[/b]
- God created the universe and all its creatures by starting the procces of evolution.
- God told me its wrong to kill fetuses.
- The flying spagety monster created god.
- There are tiny, highly itelligent flying elephants living in the body of every fetus. These elephants are to small to detect with any magnifier.
I could go on forever with these facts of yours but you get my point. Base your reasoning on objective evidence and accepts that you cannot know everything. Trying to figure out what you can, and what you cant know could easily be the most important aspect of philosophy...
16 Nov 05
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboardPhilosophy has limits. If you are genuinely unable to see simple moral truths, if you think by stating them I am "making them up", then I cannot help.
Here are some new facts for you to prove wrong, I have just made them up like you do.
- God created the universe and all its creatures by starting the procces of evolution.
- God told me its wrong to kill fetuses.
- The flying spagety monster created god.
- There are tiny, highly itelligent flying elephants living in the body of every fetu ...[text shortened]... what you can, and what you cant know could easily be the most important aspect of philosophy...
Do you live in accordance with the view you claim to hold? Do you consider nothing you do, and nothing anyone does to you, right or wrong? Do you live and deal with people as if it (a) murder being wrong and (b) the "flying spagety monster" creating God were equally plausible?
I wager you don't.
16 Nov 05
Originally posted by dottewellyour fact: "murder is wrong." Where does it come from? Have you heard this from someone? Have you read it in some book? Or do you have a natural feeling telling you murder is wrong?
Philosophy has limits. If you are genuinely unable to see simple moral truths, if you think by stating them I am "making them up", then I cannot help.
Do you live in accordance with the view you claim to hold? Do you consider nothing you do, and nothing anyone does to you, right or wrong? Do you live and deal with people as if it (a) murder bei ...[text shortened]... d (b) the "flying spagety monster" creating God were equally plausible?
I wager you don't.
16 Nov 05
Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboardNone of the above. I have no idea where it comes from, and don't believe that is a question that can be meaningfully asked. It is simply a fact.
your fact: "murder is wrong." Where does it come from? Have you heard this from someone? Have you read it in some book? Or do you have a natural feeling telling you murder is wrong?
Now do please answer my question.
16 Nov 05
2 edits
Originally posted by dottewellI have already answered your question in one of my post on the last page.
None of the above. I have no idea where it comes from, and don't believe that is a question that can be meaningfully asked. It is simply a fact.
Now do please answer my question.
Fact 1: We both have the knowledge in our brain telling us murder is wrong.
Fact 2: We did not aquired this knowledge using reason or objective evidence.
Fact 3: It would not make any sense trying to use reason when it comes to murder, because we already have the knowledge in our head.
Fact 4: The knowledge in my brain tells me abortion is wrong so this knowledge is probably also present in your brain.
Fact 5: It would not make any sense trying to use reason when it comes to abortion because you did not do so when it came to the moral question of murder on which you could base your reasoning.