Originally posted by jaywill
Chapter 7 definitely refers to 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.
No amount of wise cracking or evasion can save from this clear indication.

Chatper 14, I do not believe, refers to the same people. But the priniciple of a perfected remnant indicated by 12,000 times 12,000 is the same.

Originally posted by jaywill
Chapter 7 definitely refers to 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.
No amount of wise cracking or evasion can save from this clear indication.

Chatper 14, I do not believe, refers to the same people. But the priniciple of a perfected remnant indicated by 12,000 times 12,000 is the same.

Originally posted by jaywill
Chapter 7 definitely refers to 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.
No amount of wise cracking or evasion can save from this clear indication.

Chatper 14, I do not believe, refers to the same people. But the priniciple of a perfected remnant indicated by 12,000 times 12,000 is the same.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Thank you Jaywill. You may remember the long thread we had a few months ago. The JWs insisted that it could never be the Jews even though all the tribes are named. They are a serious Bible twisters.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no it doesn't and your assertions of wise cracking, evasion are once again unkind and unsubstantiated, you guys should really do your research before posting, otherwise your gonna be made to look quite silly, again! here are the original tribes of Israel, you will note that there is thirteen listed,

Asher
Benjamin
Dan
Ephraim
Gad
Issachar
...[text shortened]... nce again, some explaining to do, but it is late for me and i cannot stay any longer, have fun!

Originally posted by Rajk999
Youre a nutcase.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no it doesn't and your assertions of wise cracking, evasion are once again unkind and unsubstantiated, you guys should really do your research before posting, otherwise your gonna be made to look quite silly, again! here are the original tribes of Israel, you will note that there is thirteen listed,

Asher
Benjamin
Dan
Ephraim
Gad
Issachar
...[text shortened]... nce again, some explaining to do, but it is late for me and i cannot stay any longer, have fun!

Gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
Gen 49:2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.
Gen 49:3 Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:
Gen 49:4 Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch.
Gen 49:5 Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations.
Gen 49:6 O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.
Gen 49:7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.
Gen 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
Gen 49:9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Gen 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
Gen 49:12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.
Gen 49:13 Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for an haven of ships; and his border shall be unto Zidon.
Gen 49:14 Issachar is a strong ass couching down between two burdens:
Gen 49:15 And he saw that rest was good, and the land that it was pleasant; and bowed his shoulder to bear, and became a servant unto tribute.
Gen 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
Gen 49:18 I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.
Gen 49:19 Gad, a troop shall overcome him: but he shall overcome at the last.
Gen 49:20 Out of Asher his bread shall be fat, and he shall yield royal dainties.
Gen 49:21 Naphtali is a hind let loose: he giveth goodly words.
Gen 49:22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
Gen 49:23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
Gen 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel🙂
Gen 49:25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
Gen 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.
Gen 49:27 Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.
Gen 49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

Originally posted by Rajk999
There was no tribe of Joseph? There was. Read the passage below. Even if there was no tribe of Joseph, please explain how that gives the Jehovah Witness licence to claim that the listing of the other TEN tribes are void? Only a disingenuous manipulator will try that. Joseph had two sons that were blessed by Jacob, Ephraim who got Joseph's share of the blessi ...[text shortened]... unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them. [/quote]

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
infer from what? your own prejudice? where does it state that the watchtower bible and tract society claims that it is Gods wife like organisation? NOWHERE, your talking mince as usual and making inferences not from anything but a prejudiced and poisoned mind! look, you are being called out and not one straight answer, what is Gods wife like orga ...[text shortened]... u do exactly the same thing with Christ, where you pagans have made him an object of idolatry.

# The Watchtower Organization is God's organization on earth.

1. "It should be expected that the Lord would have a means of communication to his people on the earth, and he has clearly shown that the magazine called The Watchtower is used for that purpose," (1939 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses, p. 85).
2. "Make haste to identify the visible theocratic organization of God that represents his king, Jesus Christ. It is essential for life. Doing so, be complete in accepting its every aspect," (Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967, p. 591).
3. "We cannot claim to love God, yet deny his word and channel of communication," (Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967, p. 591).
4. "No matter where we may live on earth, God's Word continues to serve as a light to our path and a lamp to our roadway as to our conduct and beliefs. (Ps. 119:105) But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do," (Watchtower, Dec. 1, 1981, p. 27).

All from the Watchtower. So Bible reading alone is not sufficient I must read the Watchtower also or I Will not progress? Really? The Rubbish that I'm getting is from the Watchtower RC Not from Raj or anyone else.

Manny
"The Apostate"

The Watchtower Organization is the only way to understand the Bible.

1. "Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book," (Watchtower, July 1, 1973, p. 402).
2. "We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the 'faithful and discreet slave' organization," (Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1981).
3. "...people cannot see the Divine Plan in studying the Bible by itself...if he then lays them [Scripture Studies] aside and ignores them and goes to the bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scripture Studies with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures," (Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1910, p. 298).
4. "Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible," (Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967, p. 587).
5. "The world is full of Bibles, which Book contains the commandments of God. Why, then, do the people not know which way to go? Because they do not also have the teaching or law of the mother, which is light. Jehovah God has provided his holy written Word for all mankind and it contains all the information that is needed for men in taking a course leading to life. But God has not arranged for that Word to speak independently or to shine forth life-giving truths by itself. His Word says: "Light is sown for the righteous." (Ps. 97:11) It is through his organization that God provides this light that the proverb says is the teaching or law of the mother. If we are to walk in the light of truth we must recognize not only Jehovah God as our Father but his organization as our mother," (Watchtower, May 1, 1957, p. 274).
6. "Channel to understanding the Bible... All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the "greatly diversified wisdom of God" can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave," (Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1994, p. 8).

So who is the discreet and faithful slave organization? What a joke to try and say it's not the Watchtower.

Manny
The Pizza eating Apostate!! 🙂

Individual thinking discouraged by Watchtower Organization

1. "From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those, who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude...They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago..." (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1981).
2. "We should eat and digest and assimilate what is set before us, without shying away from parts of the food because it may not suit the fancy of our mental taste...We should meekly go along with the Lord's theocratic organization and wait for further clarification, rather than balk at the first mention of a thought unpalatable to us and proceed to quibble and mouth our criticisms and opinions as though they were worth more than the slave's provision of spiritual food. Theocratic ones will appreciate the Lord's visible organization and not be so foolish as to put against Jehovah's channel their own human reasoning and sentiment and personal feelings," (Watchtower, Feb. 1, 1952, p. 79-80).
3. "After being nourished to our present spiritual strength and maturity, do we suddenly become smarter than our former provider and forsake the enlightening guidance of the organization that mothers us? 'Forsake not the law of thy mother' (Prov. 6:20-23)," (Watchtower, Feb. 1, 1952, p. 80).

Manny
The Cyber bombing pizza eating soon to be annihilated
Rubbish throwing Apostate!! 😉

This is all from the Watchtower I did not make any of it up. So you better love your motherly organization or else!! Sounds kinda like what G75 was accusing the Catholics of. Worshiping a motherly organization? (Worshiping Mary??) Only the truth of the bible can be known through the organization!!?? So for 2000 years before the organization was set up man did not know the truth of the bible??


This is Rubbish of Rubbish!!
Watchtower quoting Apostate
Manny
out 😉

Originally posted by menace71
RC really? Who then is the wifely organization? LOL And I will humor you for argument sake that the wifely organization is not the Watchtower then there is still a problem. The problem is that you have to give this wifely organization Honor and obedience equal with what God is due.

Manny
"The Super Apostate!!" 🙂

Originally posted by galveston75
Just beyond you huh? Poor soul...