29 Jun 08
I'm not very religious,but in catholic church I remembered the priest saying that God "knows all" and "sees all".If i intrepret this properly,then God,i assume can also see the future and knows what is going to happen,right?God is God and is "all knowing".
So,lets think about this.God created Adam and Eve and gave Adam the "apple test".Adam was told not to eat the apple or future mankind will be forever forced to live a mortal life on earth,ect ect...you know the story.But heres the paradox....God "already knew" that adam would eat that apple even before he created adam and eve!God already "knew"the outcome,for he knows all and see's all and can see the future!So this was no test at all,even with "free will" because the outcome was already established by God ahead of time and he already "knew"that mankind would be mortal,not immortal.God then created 2 beings to do exactly what he knew would happen!
So,the way i look at it,we never had a chance in the first place to live on a higher plane of existance without pain and suffering,since God knew the apple would be eaten ahead of time....see?
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by VanquishSo you are calling God a liar? We either had the choice to do right or
I'm not very religious,but in catholic church I remembered the priest saying that God "knows all" and "sees all".If i intrepret this properly,then God,i assume can also see the future and knows what is going to happen,right?God is God and is "all knowing".
So,lets think about this.God created Adam and Eve and gave Adam the "apple test".Adam was told not to ...[text shortened]... in and suffering,since God knew the apple would be eaten ahead of time....see?
we did not, if we had no choice at all but were instead 'running out the
script' so to speak, than you are right, we had no choice. If instead
God gave us the choice to do what we will, that could have been the
right thing too also, than that is another subject altogether. As it
stands now, the choices are still before us, and we are still making
them, on way or another. When it is all said and done, we will see
what is truth and what is a cop out. Personally, I believe that only
God could create beings with the ability to choose, and also have
the restraint to let them.
Kelly
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by KellyJayRead his posting again. He says that Adam and Eve had no choice, because god knew already in the creation what they was going to chose.
So you are calling God a liar? We either had the choice to do right or
we did not, if we had no choice at all but were instead 'running out the
script' so to speak, than you are right, we had no choice. If instead
God gave us the choice to do what we will, that could have been the
right thing too also, than that is another subject altogether. As it
sta ...[text shortened]... uld create beings with the ability to choose, and also have
the restraint to let them.
Kelly
He didn't claim that god was a liar, he claims that this is a paradox, and he wants this paradox to be straighten out, he asks for an answer.
Instead of giving him an answer you punish him by being angry at him? That's not an intelligent answer.
My answer to him is better - "God is evil!". I've said it before, and I'll say it again until someone gives me the answer I can understand.
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by FabianFnasthank you fabian.You are correct.I am not calling god a liar,ect,ect,I just wanted some answers.There can only be one reality and only one way adam and eve could have went.And god,while telling adam he has a choice,must have "known"what that choice would be ahead of time,since he "knows all" and "see's all" and thus...can tell the future!
Read his posting again. He says that Adam and Eve had no choice, because god knew already in the creation what they was going to chose.
He didn't claim that god was a liar, he claims that this is a paradox, and he wants this paradox to be straighten out, he asks for an answer.
Instead of giving him an answer you punish him by being angry at him? Tha ...[text shortened]... said it before, and I'll say it again until someone gives me the answer I can understand.
The reality is our own presents on Earth,the evil,the suffering,wars,ect.
At the time of creation,even before God created Adam and Eve,God already "knew" the world as it is today would be "created"this way due to the fact that he already knew what was going to happen.I could go back to the other person that answered my quote and say to him...."are you telling me that God does not know all and see all"?And thus cannot tell the future?And then i could call this player ignorant...but i won't do this.
I respect any Christian religion,and i am not calling God a liar or evil(read my quote above again),and i understand that "faith"has its tests to keep believing in something....but i thought i'd bring up something to generate an interesting debate.From the lack of responsesin large quantities,i assume i probably have some people scratching their chins now,or baffled somewhat!Good!
29 Jun 08
1 edit
Originally posted by VanquishI haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that God necessarily knows the future in detail. I suspect that any such claims are borne of "my god is more powerful than your god" arguments.
I'm not very religious,but in catholic church I remembered the priest saying that God "knows all" and "sees all".If i intrepret this properly,then God,i assume can also see the future and knows what is going to happen,right?God is God and is "all knowing".
So,lets think about this.God created Adam and Eve and gave Adam the "apple test".Adam was told not to in and suffering,since God knew the apple would be eaten ahead of time....see?
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOnePerhaps you are correct.But i remembered asking a visiting Bishop to my church many years ago,and he said that God Can see the future.And if Jesus can see into the future...for example...Juda and the last supper and many more examples throughout the scriptures,then certainly "God"can see into the future,for he is the all powerful and all knowing...then of course,like Jesus,he has even more powerful abilities!So the evidence is all over the Bible about foretelling future events.he cannot be "unclear" about anything!
I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe that God necessarily knows the future in detail. I suspect that any such claims are borne of "my god is more powerful than your god" arguments.
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by VanquishDon't get me misunderstood....I am Not a disbeliever in God,Jesus,ect.but i do believe(just a belief) that while Adam was given a "choice" between eating an apple or not,the true outcome was already "established" by God,even before creation.is this evil?Well that is a relative term.Just existing on this planet is a "miracle",but i think that God meant us to suffer and he knew that ahead of time...so Adam really had only one choice,not two.....even though adam "thought" he had a choice!
Perhaps you are correct.But i remembered asking a visiting Bishop to my church many years ago,and he said that God Can see the future.And if Jesus can see into the future...for example...Juda and the last supper and many more examples throughout the scriptures,then certainly "God"can see into the future,for he is the all powerful and all knowing...then of c ...[text shortened]... is all over the Bible about foretelling future events.he cannot be "unclear" about anything!
29 Jun 08
1 edit
So, if some christians say that god *can* see the future, and other christians says that god *cannot* see the future, then they cannot possibly believe in the same god, they cannot possibly be of the same religoin.
Either god *can* see the future, or he *cannot* see the future, not both in the same time. This is another paradox of christianity.
Exactly the same paradox that some christian fear god as he actually is evil, others see him as a god of love. Do they believe in the same god, do the have the same religion?
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by VanquishThe foretelling of future events does not necessitate the knowing of the future in detail. For example, it could be to reveal planned action.
Perhaps you are correct.But i remembered asking a visiting Bishop to my church many years ago,and he said that God Can see the future.And if Jesus can see into the future...for example...Juda and the last supper and many more examples throughout the scriptures,then certainly "God"can see into the future,for he is the all powerful and all knowing...then of c ...[text shortened]... is all over the Bible about foretelling future events.he cannot be "unclear" about anything!
It makes little sense to me to make suppositions that create paradoxes.
As far as the Bishop is concerned, do you have any reason to believe that he's the final authority on whatever powers God may have?
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by FabianFnasThe story he is talking about has God giving man a choice, now which
Read his posting again. He says that Adam and Eve had no choice, because god knew already in the creation what they was going to chose.
He didn't claim that god was a liar, he claims that this is a paradox, and he wants this paradox to be straighten out, he asks for an answer.
Instead of giving him an answer you punish him by being angry at him? Tha ...[text shortened]... said it before, and I'll say it again until someone gives me the answer I can understand.
is it, did God just say man had a choice but the whole time God was
going to pitch most of mankind into Hell anyway and nothing at all
really mattered because it was all scripted for man to fail? So yes
that argument is calling God a liar, it says that man didn't or couldn't
do right, it was never going to, or never could have happened no
matter what, it was prewritten for man to fail. Either man had a choice
to act as God told him to, or man didn't, God either could create a
being that could act like God with choices or not. If God can and I do
believe that is the case, than there is not paradox, man had a choice
God laid out the outcomes before hand and man failed anyway.
As far as what God knew goes, I'd say it is like drawing a square
circle it cannot be done, you can only know what can be known I
believe God knows everything that can be known.
I also wasn't angry with him, and do not see how you got there from
what I said either.
Kelly
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by KellyJay"Well, let's see. If I offer him the Fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he'll defy me. Oh, well, I'll offer it anyway. It's his fault when he disobeys me as I know he will. Then I get to make him suffer! And his descendents! For thousands and thousands of years!
The story he is talking about has God giving man a choice, now which
is it, did God just say man had a choice but the whole time God was
going to pitch most of mankind into Hell anyway and nothing at all
really mattered because it was all scripted for man to fail? So yes
that argument is calling God a liar, it says that man didn't or couldn't
do right ...[text shortened]... so wasn't angry with him, and do not see how you got there from
what I said either.
Kelly
And it will be their own fault. Well, Adam's fault."