adam and eve paradox....

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Do Muslims see this story differently? I'd have thought this argument applied to all three Abrahamic religions.

yes, we see it differently!!!!

Originally posted by ahosyney
yes, we see it differently!!!!

How so?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
How so?

I know many atheists don't like this but I have to quote from Quran to show you my point. Read the following verses and tell me if you see the difference:

002.030: Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

002.031: And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."

002.032 They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."

002.033 He said: "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

002.034 And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

002.035 We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

002.036 Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."

002.037 Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

002.038 We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

002.039 "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."

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Originally posted by ahosyney
I know many atheists don't like this but I have to quote from Quran to show you my point. Read the following verses and tell me if you see the difference:

002.030: Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy ...[text shortened]... Fire; they shall abide therein."

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So it's not Adam's fault, it's Satan's fault, because he made Adam do it. Is that the difference? If so, then Adam had no free will to choose.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
So it's not Adam's fault, it's Satan's fault, because he made Adam do it. Is that the difference? If so, then Adam had no free will to choose.

No, the difference that Adam was created to live on earth. A mortal life on earth. And the test was to show Adam that Satan will be his enemy on earth.

This test was also to show Adam how can he gain forgiveness to return to Allah (GOD).

This has nothing to do with free well, because our view to GOD's knowladge and free well is also different!!

So the paradox that this thread talking about doesn't hold for Muslim's view.

Adam was sent to earth because he was created to live on earth, not because he made a mistake.

Also the Satan's fault is not that he made Adam eat from the tree, but because he refused to listen to Allah (GOD)'s orders.

Originally posted by ahosyney
No, the difference that Adam was created to live on earth. A mortal life on earth. And the test was to show Adam that Satan will be his enemy on earth.

This test was also to show Adam how can he gain forgiveness to return to Allah (GOD).

This has nothing to do with free well, because our view to GOD's knowladge and free well is also different!!

So ...[text shortened]... t he made Adam eat from the tree, but because he refused to listen to Allah (GOD)'s orders.

I hope you don't mind if I ask you some questions about this.

What does it mean that Satan made "them" slip from the garden?

Why did Allah tell "all ye people" to "get down from here" after Satan made "them slip from the garden"?

What did Allah mean when he said "I know what ye do not." The angels' fears seem to have been borne out by reality.

Is Iblis Satan?

Should humans expect that angels will prostrate themselves before us?

Why do people have "enmity between themselves"?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I hope you don't mind if I ask you some questions about this.

What does it mean that Satan made "them" slip from the garden?

Why did Allah tell "all ye people" to "get down from here" after Satan made "them slip from the garden"?

What did Allah mean when he said "I know what ye do not." The angels' fears seem to have been borne out by realit ...[text shortened]... prostrate themselves before us?

Why do people have "enmity between themselves"?

I don't mind, but I just don't have time now to think about all your questions, I have to do some readings to make sure of my answers

although I think there are a couple of questions I can give an answer for:

Is Iblis Satan?

In Arabic the word "shytan" translated into satan (small S), which I think you call a supernatural creature. When we add to the prefex "Al" to be "Al Shytan" it usually means Satan (capital S) which is the satan that refused to bow to Adam. Iblis is the personal name of that Satan.

So the answer is yes.


Should humans expect that angels will prostrate themselves before us?

No, the order was to bow only for Adam and Adam alone. And that was not worship, it was to glorigy Adam.
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I will get back to you with the answer to the other questions as soon as possible. I'm working on a paper that I have to finish to night, and there is a lot of work to do.

Originally posted by KellyJay
So yes that argument is calling God a liar, ...

I still can't see where he call god a liar. Only your interpretation of it. And that interpretation stands for you, not for what he wrote.

If he called god a liar, don't you think god can defend himself, god is not a wimp? Like sending a bolt of thunder right into his head, or something, god does these things, doesn't he?

My 2 cents worth. The story of Adam and Eve is allegorical. There were no two people Adam and Eve, they are just placeholder characters in a story of how mankind came to be. The Garden of Eden is all around you, even now. Walk out into the woods and look around. Animals don't 'work' for a living, the planet feeds them. Mankind WAS an animal until we evolved intelligence (ate of the tree of knowledge) and was therefore cast out of the Garden of Eden. The Garden still exists, we're just too 'intelligent' to live there anymore.

As to the God aspects of the story, in the beginning God becomes self-aware and creates the universe. Then he creates a race of immortal, beautiful beings to worship him, but that gets tedious because they were programmed to love him, so he comes up with the idea of creating a race of non-immortal, non-beautiful people who can CHOOSE to love him or not. He creates them using evolution.

Just to make things interesting, he causes some of the beautiful immortals to doubt his sanity for wanting to create this lesser race. A war breaks out and Satan and his lot are on the losing side. Now in the battle to win the hearts of men, God has a worthy opponent. They battle for our souls pretty much for the fun of the challenge.

The bible says over and over that we're here specifically for the glorification of God. What part of that isn't clear?

It's all a huge, glorious battle all for the entertainment of the Creator and you can participate and enjoy it or you can feel used and abused for being drafted into it, but either way you're going along for the ride.

The question is: if you weren't doing this, what else would you be doing?

Originally posted by sbacat
My 2 cents worth. The story of Adam and Eve is allegorical. There were no two people Adam and Eve, they are just placeholder characters in a story of how mankind came to be. The Garden of Eden is all around you, even now. Walk out into the woods and look around. Animals don't 'work' for a living, the planet feeds them. Mankind WAS an animal until we evolved i ...[text shortened]... he ride.

The question is: if you weren't doing this, what else would you be doing?

And now I have to repeat (nearly) the same thing again:'

So, if some christians say that Adam and Ever really was there, and other christians says that Adam and Eve wasn't there, only allegorically, then they cannot possibly believe in the same god, they cannot possibly be of the same religoin.
Either *was* they there, or they *wasn't* there, not both in the same time. This is another paradox of christianity.

Exactly the same paradox that some christian fear god as he actually is evil, others see him as a god of love. Do they believe in the same god, do the have the same religion?

This is a real paradox for me. They are all united in the same belief, yet they don't believe the same way. This is not detail, this is fundamental stuff...

Religion is a plagiarism derived from the conflict between the Egyptian god of light, Horus, and the god of darkness, Set. Jesus is simply a solar deity. All one needs to do is replace the word "son" with "sun" throughout the Bible and you will see what I mean.

I can't believe we are still living our lives as slaves to a fairytale. It's time for people to outgrow this divisive nonsense that is splitting our world apart. There is no race, we are all just "human." There is zero evidence and there will always be zero evidence for religion. The Romans adapted it to control the common people and it's still used like this today. Be skeptical, be rational. If I told you I worshiped a frozen cheese fish that orbits Jupiter you would call me insane. It's no different than what people of faith believe except for some reason it's deemed admirable. Religion is pure evil.

Actually, what you're describing as paradox is the fact that different people can believe different things and still appear to either get good results or bad results. What you believe is not as important as THAT you believe.

Since this is a chess forum, I'll use a chess analogy. You are a pawn in a huge game (or a knight or a bishop) and so long as you play by the rules and function within the parameters of your design, you will operate within the game accordingly. Sometime (most times) pawns get sacrificed. That's to be expected.

If you want the purpose of mankind to be something grander, it simply isn't there. Be a happy, well-adjusted pawn; there is no higher calling.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
"Well, let's see. If I offer him the Fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he'll defy me. Oh, well, I'll offer it anyway. It's his fault when he disobeys me as I know he will. Then I get to make him suffer! And his descendents! For thousands and thousands of years!

And it will be their own fault. Well, Adam's fault."

You can stick your tongue in a wall socket after being told not to,
and yes indeed it would be your fault if you did it anyway.
Kelly

Originally posted by Vanquish
I'm not very religious,but in catholic church I remembered the priest saying that God "knows all" and "sees all".If i intrepret this properly,then God,i assume can also see the future and knows what is going to happen,right?God is God and is "all knowing".
So,lets think about this.God created Adam and Eve and gave Adam the "apple test".Adam was told not to ...[text shortened]... in and suffering,since God knew the apple would be eaten ahead of time....see?

Yes, God knew what would happen, but man still had a choice. Man could trust God not to eat, or he could trust satan's lie. God also provided a Redeemer, Jesus Christ, to bring man back to Himself.
In retrospect, what God did was "gamble" so to speak. He gave and still gives freedom of will. Choose Him and have life, or choose not to.
He could have made Adam to obey by not allowing the serpent in the garden...but this has it's draw backs. God wanted man to obey, love and accept Him for who He is, by offering a choice.
Would you want someone to love you and only you, without the freedom to choose? Or would you want someone to see both you and someone else, and then choose you? There is a huge difference....hope this helps you understand....

Originally posted by FabianFnas
I still can't see where he call god a liar. Only your interpretation of it. And that interpretation stands for you, not for what he wrote.

If he called god a liar, don't you think god can defend himself, god is not a wimp? Like sending a bolt of thunder right into his head, or something, god does these things, doesn't he?

God is sinned against with every sin we do to each other and those
we direct towards Him, and He is showing us all mercy at the moment.
Kelly