29 Jun 08
Originally posted by checkbaiterHow can you trust in something you know will not happen?
Yes, God knew what would happen, but man still had a choice. Man could trust God not to eat, or he could trust satan's lie. God also provided a Redeemer, Jesus Christ, to bring man back to Himself.
In retrospect, what God did was "gamble" so to speak. He gave and still gives freedom of will. Choose Him and have life, or choose not to.
He could have m ...[text shortened]... else, and then choose you? There is a huge difference....hope this helps you understand....
29 Jun 08
Originally posted by checkbaiterIs God that insecure that he needs validation from us? Is he that uncaring that if we deny him that validation we're doomed to misery despite his having the power to make things otherwise?
Would you want someone to love you and only you, without the freedom to choose? Or would you want someone to see both you and someone else, and then choose you? There is a huge difference....hope this helps you understand....
29 Jun 08
all good comments!A couple of things though....about the "Bishop"telling me that god can clearly see the future and if i take his "word'for that....no,not necessarily,but who knows more about the bible and the catholic religion in extreme detail....the Bishop or me?
See?Also,since God created the heavens and the earth,this also involves"everything,INCLUDING time itself!And this being true(according to faith) then since he "knows all" and see's all...then God having created time which has fow,ebbs,currents,backward and forward movement,warps,black holes and a host of things we can't comprehend,then yes....he can and does know the future,thus....
Adam had a "delusional'free choice,since it went one way,not both or we would'nt be here now on Earth as mortals.
Hey,thats the way i see it.
I'm done posting on this subject,its beginning to bore me!take care!
30 Jun 08
1 edit
Originally posted by VanquishI think you should also contemplate other statements in the Bible. I am thinking of these:
I'm not very religious,but in catholic church I remembered the priest saying that God "knows all" and "sees all".If i intrepret this properly,then God,i assume can also see the future and knows what is going to happen,right?God is God and is "all knowing".
So,lets think about this.God created Adam and Eve and gave Adam the "apple test".Adam was told not to in and suffering,since God knew the apple would be eaten ahead of time....see?
" ... the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ...even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4,5)
In this passage Paul is telling the Christians that "before the foundation of the world" God marked out a destinity for them of sonship, that is to be like Jesus Christ, ie. many brothers of Christ the Firstborn Son of God.
Before the foundation of the world would mean before the creation of the universe.
While we have no statements suggesting that God foreordained suffering, we do have statements saying God foreordained this glorious destiny of sonship to His redeemed.
Here is another passage I think you should consider:
" In whom also we were designated as an inheritance, having been predestednated as an inheritance, having been predestinated according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of His will" (Eph. 1:11)
Again, I see no statement about predestinating people to suffering. But I see here of predestinating that some would be inherited by God to be His eternal inheritance.
The first passage spoke of predestinating people to be sons of God. The second passage speaks of predestinating some to be God's inheritance.
This third passage speaks of God's ability to cause all things to work together for good to those called into His eternal purpose:
"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose" (Rom.8:28)
So men and women can pray boldly "Dear God you are able to cause all things that have happened to me, whether fortunate or misfortunate, to all work together for good because I am in your purpose and I love you. According to your own word and promise you, God, can orchestrate all things for the benefit of the good pleasure and purpose you have for me."
And I think you should also consider that Paul said that NOTHING could seperate the believers from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
Shall tribulation? or anguish or persecution or famine or peril or sword?
But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (See Rom 8:34-39)
So I think you should contemplate more on the statments of the glorious predestination of God. We count that all uncomfortable circumstances give Him occasion to WROUGHT into our being the Spirit of Christ and to work His divine nature into our beings.
This light momentary affiction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory. And we may consider that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared to the coming glory which shall be revealed upon the believers in Christ.
Catholics often don't like to read the Bible for themselves. Beware to read for yourself the Bible.
01 Jul 08
Kelly, thanks for a wonderful illustration of circular reasoning. You know, if you really know the mind of god like you say you do — and let's be honest, you must judging by your last statement — then whatever it is you do in your career, I would suggest switching immediately because I think you could make a hell of a lot of money. This is the point where I ask, "So Kelly, how do you know the mind of god?" and you respond, "Because it's in the Bible."
Please, you sound like a brainwashed child.
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01 Jul 08
Originally posted by VanquishSo this would seem to indicate that God does not know all and see all, correct? This is but one of many accounts where it would seem that the Creator in the Bible has allowed for existence and events to start and then seems not to know how things will turn out! I would be hard pressed to read the OT and get out of the accounts there the idea that God "knows all" and "sees all". I get an impression of a different idea of God from the OT.
I'm not very religious,but in catholic church I remembered the priest saying that God "knows all" and "sees all".If i intrepret this properly,then God,i assume can also see the future and knows what is going to happen,right?God is God and is "all knowing".
So,lets think about this.God created Adam and Eve and gave Adam the "apple test".Adam was told not to ...[text shortened]... in and suffering,since God knew the apple would be eaten ahead of time....see?
I think this is probably more of a Christian notion, one that seems to have gained ground since the Enlightenment. There's nothing quite like the fear that your traditional, entrenched notions may be off base to make you firmly affix your head into the sand. It's not terribly rational but there is much about human behaviour that is not rational.
05 Jul 08
Originally posted by AThousandYoungHe did not offer it, it was there and so was a warning.
"Well, let's see. If I offer him the Fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he'll defy me. Oh, well, I'll offer it anyway. It's his fault when he disobeys me as I know he will. Then I get to make him suffer! And his descendents! For thousands and thousands of years!
And it will be their own fault. Well, Adam's fault."
Kelly
05 Jul 08
Originally posted by AThousandYoungIt isn't a matter of validation it is a matter of getting it right, of
Is God that insecure that he needs validation from us? Is he that uncaring that if we deny him that validation we're doomed to misery despite his having the power to make things otherwise?
putting everything in the proper place. With God being the source
of all that is good and life itself, He is worthy of worship and praise.
You can reject that out of hand, and with hold all you choose to,
it is after all up to you.
Kelly
05 Jul 08
Originally posted by darthclimoPlease put things into context and show the discussion you are
Kelly, thanks for a wonderful illustration of circular reasoning. You know, if you really know the mind of god like you say you do — and let's be honest, you must judging by your last statement — then whatever it is you do in your career, I would suggest switching immediately because I think you could make a hell of a lot of money. This is the point where ...[text shortened]... d you respond, "Because it's in the Bible."
Please, you sound like a brainwashed child.
refering to.
Kelly
05 Jul 08
Originally posted by darthclimoWow, you write one post, and use it to insult me.
Kelly, thanks for a wonderful illustration of circular reasoning. You know, if you really know the mind of god like you say you do — and let's be honest, you must judging by your last statement — then whatever it is you do in your career, I would suggest switching immediately because I think you could make a hell of a lot of money. This is the point where ...[text shortened]... d you respond, "Because it's in the Bible."
Please, you sound like a brainwashed child.
Kelly
06 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI did answer two of those questions before I don't know if you read them or not:
I hope you don't mind if I ask you some questions about this.
What does it mean that Satan made "them" slip from the garden?
Why did Allah tell "all ye people" to "get down from here" after Satan made "them slip from the garden"?
What did Allah mean when he said "I know what ye do not." The angels' fears seem to have been borne out by realit ...[text shortened]... prostrate themselves before us?
Why do people have "enmity between themselves"?
Is Iblis Satan?
In Arabic the word "shytan" translated into satan (small S), which I think you call a supernatural creature. When we add to the prefex "Al" to be "Al Shytan" it usually means Satan (capital S) which is the satan that refused to bow to Adam. Iblis is the personal name of that Satan.
So the answer is yes.
Should humans expect that angels will prostrate themselves before us?
No, the order was to bow only for Adam and Adam alone. And that was not worship, it was to glorify Adam.
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Before I continue I will have to make it clear that what I mentioned before is the translation, and the translator sometimes captures only the meaning that close to his understanding. There are many books are written about the explaination of the meanings of Quran. They are of course written in Arabic, but they contain many explainations from Hadith, and the early Muslims understanding. What makes value to the early Muslims understanding is the use of the language.
Given that I will try to answer the remaining questions as I can find them in the commentry books and as much as I can to express the meanings in English:
What does it mean that Satan made "them" slip from the garden?
The word in Arabic is "Azalahma" which means moved them away from them. Or also can be translated as caused them to sin. In both meanings it means that the Satan caused Adam and his wife (because the name Eve is not in Quran), to sin and at that time they were out from the Garden.
I have to point out that the goal of the Satan was not to get them out of the Garden, rather to make them slip and sin. Because he thought that he is better than Adam. To make this idea clear, I will present more verses about why the Satan wanted to do that:
Sad:38:
[71] (Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Truly I am going to create man from clay".
[72] So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him."
[73] So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them:
[74] Except Iblîs (Satan): he was proud and was one of the disbelievers.
[75] (Allâh) said: "O Iblîs (Satan)! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands. Are you too proud (to fall prostrate to Adam) or are you one of the high exalted?"
[76] (Iblîs (Satan)) said: "I am better than he. You created me from fire, and You created him from clay."
[77] (Allâh) said: "Then get out from here; for verily, you are outcast.
[78] "And verily My Curse is on you till the Day of Recompense."
[79] (Iblîs (Satan)) said: "My Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are resurrected."
[80] (Allâh) said: "Verily! You are of those allowed respite."
[81] "Till the Day of the time appointed."
[82] (Iblîs (Satan)) said: "By Your Might, then I will surely mislead them all,
[83] "Except Your chosen slaves amongst them (i.e. faithful, obedient, true believers of Islâmic Monotheism)."
[84] (Allâh) said: "The Truth is - and the Truth I say
[85] That I will fill Hell with you (Iblîs (Satan)) and those of them (mankind) that follow you, together."
Sorry for the many verses, but this dialog shows that the purpos of the Satan was to Mislead humans. And that what he was trying to do. And the tree story was to show Adam that Satan is his enimy and he always wants to mislead him. And also he tought Adam how to repent when he sin.
I don't know if this answers your questions. just let me know...
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Why did Allah tell "all ye people" to "get down from here" after Satan made "them slip from the garden"?
Because the lesson is ended here. They knew their enemy and the purpose of their existance in the Garden is ended.
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What did Allah mean when he said "I know what ye do not." The angels' fears seem to have been borne out by reality.
There are two parts in this questions: First what Allah Say "I know what ye do not know", and this could refere to two things:
1- Before that Angles were proud that they are in a continues worship to Allah, and they never disobeied him. So Allah told them that he knows that one of them will break this idea refereing to Satan.
2- Also it may refere to that there will be many humans who will worship Allah even more than angles.
----
The second part of your questiosn is:
The angels' fears seem to have been borne out by reality.
That may be true if there were another type of creatures before man kind with freewill and the angles knew about them. So Allah told them that your knowledge is limited and the new creatures may be better.
Or, may be the knew that freewill that was given to humans will lead to that some humans will choose not to worship Allah, and do the evil.
Why do people have "enmity between themselves"?
Actually I found this in many books refere to the enmity between Adam and Satan, not enmity between people. So may be this translation is not accurate...
I hope that I answered your questions. And If you have more questions I will try to answer them as much as I can. There is no person who knows everything. And I don't know everything. If I did so then I'm not believing in Quran because it says:
Yousef:12
[76] So he (Yûsuf (Joseph)) began (the search) in their bags before the bag of his brother. Then he brought it out of his brother's bag. Thus did We plan for Yûsuf (Joseph). He could not take his brother by the law of the king (as a slave), except that Allâh willed it. (So Allâh made the brothers to bind themselves with their way of "punishment, i.e. enslaving of a thief." ) We raise to degrees whom We will, but over all those endowed with knowledge is the All-Knowing (Allâh).
07 Jul 08
Originally posted by ahosyneyThank you. I read your response and I have no comment on it. I'm thankful you took time to explain. Christians and atheists are all over the place here, but it's hard to find Muslims who are willing to discuss religious issues here on RHP. You and once upon a time Peachy are about it.
I did answer two of those questions before I don't know if you read them or not:
[b]Is Iblis Satan?
In Arabic the word "shytan" translated into satan (small S), which I think you call a supernatural creature. When we add to the prefex "Al" to be "Al Shytan" it usually means Satan (capital S) which is the satan that refused to bow to Adam. Iblis i ...[text shortened]... wledge is the All-Knowing (Allâh).[/b]
[/i][/b]
07 Jul 08
Originally posted by ZahlanziWell what purpose does the metaphor serve? I am sure that you have kept the metaphor in your 'Holy Book' and so have most other theists. So they must think that at least part of the story means something important.
should we be discussing how evil was the way god treated 2 persons that never existed?
how can discussing a metaphor(adam and eve) made up by man shed any light onto how evil or benevolent god is?
If it does not shed some light on Gods evilness or benevolence, then what does it shed light on?
I was brought up to believe it was not a factual account (my parents were Anglican) but that it somehow explained how sin entered the world. I have never understood it, and despite asking a number of theists, have never found someone who can explain it to me in easy to understand terms. They usually end up with the old "if you are not a Christian you cant understand it". That has lead me to believe that most of them do not infact understand it but like to pretend that they do.