1. Standard memberKellyJay
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    30 Oct '15 02:10
    Can you be forgiven or even need to be for something you didn't do?

    Once you do something then the need arises doesn't it, but until that time
    there would be no need.

    So the debate about being forgiven of all future sins seems a bit,
    unnecessary to me since no one is a murderer until they murder.
  2. SubscriberFMF
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    30 Oct '15 02:28
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    So the debate about being forgiven of all future sins seems a bit,
    unnecessary to me since no one is a murderer until they murder.
    If you claim that the "sins" you will commit in the future have somehow been preemptively forgiven as a result of Jesus being executed ~ if that is your ideology, and you seek to air it in public ~ then debating it is, of course, valid and necessary. Surely you are not here on a debate forum insisting that scrutiny of your beliefs and claims is "unnecessary"?
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    30 Oct '15 11:13
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Can you be forgiven or even need to be for something you didn't do?

    Once you do something then the need arises doesn't it, but until that time
    there would be no need.

    So the debate about being forgiven of all future sins seems a bit,
    unnecessary to me since no one is a murderer until they murder.
    Actually you do not understand. The doctrine some Christians have is that they have eternal life already, they are regenerated and they cannot lose it. In order to support that doctrine they need to find ways to void the passages in the Bible that speak of the consequences of sin. Therefore they must claim that sin is not an issue as Christ died for all their sins. Now if Christ did not die for all sins [which is clear in the Bible], then their doctrine fails.
  4. Standard memberKellyJay
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    30 Oct '15 15:05
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Actually you do not understand. The doctrine some Christians have is that they have eternal life already, they are regenerated and they cannot lose it. In order to support that doctrine they need to find ways to void the passages in the Bible that speak of the consequences of sin. Therefore they must claim that sin is not an issue as Christ died for all the ...[text shortened]... Now if Christ did not die for all sins [which is clear in the Bible], then their doctrine fails.
    I got to tell you, you are funny some times. I don't understand the doctrine of some
    Christians!

    I don't care, I'm expressing my thoughts not what "other Christians" think and believe.
    If you want to argue with one of those "other Christians" about what it is that they think
    and believe, go find one and respond to their posts.
  5. Pale Blue Dot
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    30 Oct '15 15:44
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Can you be forgiven or even need to be for something you didn't do?

    Once you do something then the need arises doesn't it, but until that time
    there would be no need.

    So the debate about being forgiven of all future sins seems a bit,
    unnecessary to me since no one is a murderer until they murder.
    "Can you be forgiven or even need to be for something you didn't do?"

    Strange question (and answer) coming from a Christian. Isn't that what the whole original sin thing's about? Being forgiven for something you didn't do?
  6. Standard memberKellyJay
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    30 Oct '15 15:521 edit
    Originally posted by Green Paladin
    "Can you be forgiven or even need to be for something you didn't do?"

    Strange question (and answer) coming from a Christian. Isn't that what the whole original sin thing's about? Being forgiven for something you didn't do?
    Future sins, something that has not happen yet. The first sin put into us that nature, which
    is different.

    I don't think I was clear, thanks for pointing that out.
  7. Standard memberRajk999
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    30 Oct '15 17:04
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I got to tell you, you are funny some times. I don't understand the doctrine of some
    Christians!

    I don't care, I'm expressing my thoughts not what "other Christians" think and believe.
    If you want to argue with one of those "other Christians" about what it is that they think
    and believe, go find one and respond to their posts.
    You sad the debate was unnecessary. I was explaining why it was necessary.
  8. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    30 Oct '15 17:09
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Can you be forgiven or even need to be for something you didn't do?

    Once you do something then the need arises doesn't it, but until that time
    there would be no need.

    So the debate about being forgiven of all future sins seems a bit,
    unnecessary to me since no one is a murderer until they murder.
    How about original sin?
  9. Standard memberRemoved
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    30 Oct '15 17:11
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Can you be forgiven or even need to be for something you didn't do?

    Once you do something then the need arises doesn't it, but until that time
    there would be no need.

    So the debate about being forgiven of all future sins seems a bit,
    unnecessary to me since no one is a murderer until they murder.
    God has already provided for sins you will commit in the future. Christ died for sins once forever. If only your past sins are forgiven there is no blood sacrifice for future sins and every one would be condemned.
  10. Pale Blue Dot
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    30 Oct '15 19:34
    "Jesus died for someone's sins... but not mine."

    YouTube[/youtube]
  11. SubscriberSuzianne
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    30 Oct '15 19:52
    Originally posted by FMF
    If you claim that the "sins" you will commit in the future have somehow been preemptively forgiven as a result of Jesus being executed ~ if that is your ideology, and you seek to air it in public ~ then debating it is, of course, valid and necessary. Surely you are not here on a debate forum insisting that scrutiny of your beliefs and claims is "unnecessary"?
    Honest scrutiny is one thing. Preemptively calling another's beliefs "superstition" or worse, is not mere "honest scrutiny and debate", it's name-calling, and yeah, that is unnecessary.

    And because of this, and certain posters' inclination to not show other's beliefs the tiniest scrap of respect (after all, everyone has beliefs, but to be called somehow deficient because of them is too much), I doubt if you'll be getting much Christian response in your new thread, but than again, perhaps you didn't want any. Bad-mouthing people doesn't exactly make them want to engage you.
  12. SubscriberSuzianne
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    30 Oct '15 19:53
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Actually you do not understand. The doctrine some Christians have is that they have eternal life already, they are regenerated and they cannot lose it. In order to support that doctrine they need to find ways to void the passages in the Bible that speak of the consequences of sin. Therefore they must claim that sin is not an issue as Christ died for all the ...[text shortened]... Now if Christ did not die for all sins [which is clear in the Bible], then their doctrine fails.
    You still don't "get it", do you?
  13. SubscriberSuzianne
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    30 Oct '15 19:55
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    You sad the debate was unnecessary. I was explaining why it was necessary.
    No, you were explaining why you "bad-mouth" your Christian brothers, in direct defiance of Christ's commandment to love our Christian brothers.
  14. Standard memberDeepThought
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    30 Oct '15 20:35
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Can you be forgiven or even need to be for something you didn't do?

    Once you do something then the need arises doesn't it, but until that time
    there would be no need.

    So the debate about being forgiven of all future sins seems a bit,
    unnecessary to me since no one is a murderer until they murder.
    A problem of time. I'd thought that the general notion is that the relevant time for divine forgiveness is after one dies. That seems to resolve the problem since it is difficult to commit sins after death. This also leaves one responsible for one's post baptismal behaviour.

    As far as I can tell when the Pagans converted the kings would fight a series of expansionary wars intending to formally convert after they'd completed their conquests. That way the sins one commits making war would be before the time of their baptism. There is of course the risk of dieing before conversion, for example Penda, but they could expand their kingdom and secure it by joining the Church, after which time they were secure against other Christian kingdoms as one could not make war on other Christians without an exemption from the Church. So medieval Christianity seems to have believed that one is not responsible for one's sins pre-conversion but that one is culpable for the sins committed after.
  15. Pale Blue Dot
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    30 Oct '15 20:37
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Honest scrutiny is one thing. Preemptively calling another's beliefs "superstition" or worse, is not mere "honest scrutiny and debate", it's name-calling, and yeah, that is unnecessary.

    And because of this, and certain posters' inclination to not show other's beliefs the tiniest scrap of respect (after all, everyone has beliefs, but to be called somehow ...[text shortened]... perhaps you didn't want any. Bad-mouthing people doesn't exactly make them want to engage you.
    "...but than again..."

    I'm shocked, Suzianne!
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