An honest question for Christians

Originally posted by KellyJay
I think God has done us all a favor, making away for everyone to be saved
no matter how far into evil we have gone. The thing you seem to have an
issue with is that some of us you want to call righteous, because they are
not as bad as some of the worst of us. You don't believe our best is not
good enough and worthy of a devil's hell! Jesus said it best ...[text shortened]... l rejects the notion
that God has condemned us all due to the sin in all of our lives.
Kelly

yes, i take issue that the god of love thinks us to be worthless abomination. it is kind of contradictory to so love the world that he sent his only son to preach a wonderful message of hippieism all the while saying we are evil. even though we were made in his image.


i claim god loves us and forgives us. and i claim god would sooner forgive someone not paying him attention than a child rapist.


"The thing you seem to have an issue with is that some of us you want to call righteous, because they are not as bad as some of the worst of us. You don't believe our best is not good enough and worthy of a devil's hell! Jesus said it best only God is good so to claim a man is good and should not be cast into hell rejects the notion that God has condemned us all due to the sin in all of our lives."

this almost made no sense at all. use smaller sentences if you can't make a phrase. if god is good, then he will not save "the worst of us" while condemning the "best of us" to eternal damnation. and yes, i hold a hindu or atheist doctor as better than a god fearing wife beating jesus loving alcoholic redneck. some people are simply better than others and "accepting jesus" doesn't automatically make a crappy person better.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
yes, i take issue that the god of love thinks us to be worthless abomination. it is kind of contradictory to so love the world that he sent his only son to preach a wonderful message of hippieism all the while saying we are evil. even though we were made in his image.


i claim god loves us and forgives us. and i claim god would sooner forgive someone han others and "accepting jesus" doesn't automatically make a crappy person better.

yes, i take issue that the god of love thinks us to be worthless abomination.

You take issue with God of love who is also righteous and holy ?
You think He should throw away His absolute righteousness and love Satan as Barney the Dinosaur would sing that we are all one happy family?

I take issue with you. If He had thought us worthless He would not have come to die a curse upon the cross on our behalf to save us from His righteous judgment.

We tend to want God to deny His characteristic of righteousness and only love with no regard for any penalty for breaking His law. This is like the thief who wants money by any means necessary. How he gets the money does not matter as long as he gets the money.

The method may be wrong, underhanded, sloppy, unrighteous. It doesn't matter to the thief. All the matters is that he obtains the money.

So man does not care how God saves us from unrighteousness. His method can be sloppy, sentimental, unrighteous, negligent and involve God in contradicting His nature. That doesn't matter. Just as long as we get saved we don't care how He does it.

You don't care if God's law is transgresses, His authority spurned, His glory insulted, His holiness violated. Just as long as you get saved from your sins that is all you care about. This is like the thief who only cares for the end result, to obtain the money he needs.

it is kind of contradictory to so love the world that he sent his only son to preach a wonderful message of hippieism all the while saying we are evil. even though we were made in his image.

That is the warped message you are reading into the New Testament.
That is you reading the reflection of your hippie philosophy into the New Testament.

You are reading there a sloppy, unjust, permissive, "love" which does not love justice but only a Barney the Dinosaur type of sentimentalism which looks the other way when iniquity is committed.

The paradox of the Bible is that God has a way to both love man to the uttermost and yet also uphold His eternally righteous law. How He can do so without discarding either is the dilemma of God. It is why the Son dies under divine judgment on our behalf, in our place, atoning for our transgression of His law.

The cross of Christ is where God upholds His righteousness and maintains His love at the same time. If we believe - substitution takes place. God does not simply look the other way at our real guilt. Rather He judges our guilt in Christ in our place.

No human imagination could come up with this idea.

i claim god loves us and forgives us.

God does love us. He loves us to the uttermost. But He will not forgive us sentimentally. He will not forgive us in a way which denies His own standard or undermines His holiness. He will forgive in a way that manifests His justice against the hated sinning. He will forgive in a way which pours out His love without discarding His righteous law. God will not give up His being righteous because of His love.

Let me repeat this. God will not give up His righteousness because of His love. If He only loves with no thought of His law then that is unrighteous forgiveness. Don't you understand that? Don't you understand that there is such a thing as forgiveness which is not righteous ?

If He demonstrates His righteous penalty for law breaking as He forgives us then His standard is upheld to all the universe. He forgives but because sin was judged.

He forgives because sin is judged in Christ His sinless Son on our behalf.
He commands that we believe and substitution takes places.

Your way is that God should love us with no thought of judgment. You want free forgiveness. Coming to Jesus seems like free forgiveness on our side. From God's perspective there is no such thing as free forgiveness. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Payment for the transgression against His law must be paid.

At Calvary both the righteousness of God and the great love of God are manifested. This is not the "free love" of the hippy. But then neither is it the heartless condemnation of loveless justice. It is God's love and God's justice working together.

He commands that we believe in Christ and substitution is ours. We are forgiven not because God is sloppy and looks the other way. We are forgiven because we were judged in Christ on His cross.

and i claim god would sooner forgive someone not paying him attention than a child rapist.

The command of the gospel, I think, is secondarily to love Christ.
The command primarily, I think, is to believe Christ is Son of God.

Sure I should love God. But the message seems first that I believe that Christ is Son of God and that God has raised Him from the dead. Notice now, it does not primarily say that I fully understand the plan of redemption. It says that I am commanded to believe that Jesus is Lord and the God raised Him from the dead. Then I will be saved. Consider:

" ... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Rom. 10:9)

This may be like "If you sit down in the Bowing 707 you will arrive from New York to Dallas."

You don't have to understand that much. You are on the plane and the plane will take you to your destination. Of course it is good to understand something about the plane. But it is getting into the plane and sitting which will bring you to the destination. The plane does the work.

So if we confess with our mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in our heart that God has raised Him from the dead, we step INTO Christ. Being IN Christ "we will be saved" from the eternal punishment.

I do not discourage you from loving God and loving Christ. Of course not. And to see His love for us causes us to love Him in return. It should.

But Paul says nothing about love here. He talks only about confessing with the mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in the heart that God has raised Jesus the Lord from the dead. We will be saved. It is the paying attention to the fact that Jesus is Lord and that He is risen from the dead by God.

That is the paying attention that He commands.

I am going to stop here. I have tried my best to help you discriminate between the sloppy sentimental hippy free love from the love with righteousness in the Gospel.

In my experience of religion/spiritualism there have been three major ways to "get closer to "God" ", all of which are said to be selfless and humble when done right.

1. The way of (good) works.

2. The way of devotion.

3. The way of knowledge and learning.

I personally am inclined to the last of these three , however I am reminded at times that I need to fit any given situation properly, and I need to engage in devotion or to simply help another (good works).

It is up to oneself to determine what he/she needs in their spiritual life to fulfill their dharma, but it is certain that all three ways must be understood and practiced by any potential adept to co-create a holistic vision of truth and enlightenment in the here and now.

Originally posted by Phranny
I was not raised Christian but have many Christian friends. Some believe that good works alone will get you into heaven. However, some friends claim that only faith in Jesus gets you a pass. In fact, I once listened to a brief story on a Christian radio channel. Two men are at the gates of heaven. One led a life full of loving kindness and compassion for oth ...[text shortened]... ne who gets into the heaven. The other man is sent to Hell. I do not understand. Please explain.

There is also the problem of the "one size fits all" punishment: hell. The pathological liar gets the same sentence as a serial killer. (Assuming, of course, that the serial killer does not turn to Jesus at the end and escape the punishment).

Originally posted by SwissGambit
There is also the problem of the "one size fits all" punishment: hell. The pathological liar gets the same sentence as a serial killer. (Assuming, of course, that the serial killer does not turn to Jesus at the end and escape the punishment).

We need not assume one size fits all to the exclusion of any discrimination.

If God goes out of His way to describe degrees of punishment in eternity some might foolishly gamble that less punishment will be better than more.

Less may be better than more. But it is God's desire that men avoid the separation from Himself altogether.

Some places in Sing Sing Prison may be better than others. Why advertise that ?? It is better to avoid Sing Sing Prison entirely.

Sing Sing Correctional Facility is a maximum security prison[2] operated by the New York State Department of Corrections and Community Supervision in the town of Ossining, in the U.S. state of New York. It is located about 30 miles (50 km) north of New York City on the east bank of the Hudson River.

Unlike fanciful Dante's Comedy the Bible doesn't bother explaining how one shoe will not fit all. It labors that men would be completely saved from separation from God forever in its entirety. Dante's Comedy is human thought and not God's revelation from the Bible.

Originally posted by sonship
If God goes out of His way to describe degrees of punishment in eternity some might foolishly gamble that less punishment will be better than more.

Gamble how? By doing less heinous things?

If that's what it means, then let's all gamble like we're in Las Vegas.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
yes, i take issue that the god of love thinks us to be worthless abomination. it is kind of contradictory to so love the world that he sent his only son to preach a wonderful message of hippieism all the while saying we are evil. even though we were made in his image.


i claim god loves us and forgives us. and i claim god would sooner forgive someone ...[text shortened]... han others and "accepting jesus" doesn't automatically make a crappy person better.

Worthless? No, guilty would be the correct word.
Kelly

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
yes, i take issue that the god of love thinks us to be worthless abomination. it is kind of contradictory to so love the world that he sent his only son to preach a wonderful message of hippieism all the while saying we are evil. even though we were made in his image.


i claim god loves us and forgives us. and i claim god would sooner forgive someone ...[text shortened]... han others and "accepting jesus" doesn't automatically make a crappy person better.

God made a way for all to be saved, you are the one that wants to parse
that some should be saved and others rejected. I'll take God's methods over
yours, thank you very much!
Kelly

Originally posted by karoly aczel
In my experience of religion/spiritualism there have been three major ways to "get closer to "God" ", all of which are said to be selfless and humble when done right.

1. The way of (good) works.

2. The way of devotion.

3. The way of knowledge and learning.

I personally am inclined to the last of these three , however I am reminded at times t ...[text shortened]... tential adept to co-create a holistic vision of truth and enlightenment in the here and now.

Mankind is unable to master even one of these three, much less all three. There is only One that has done it and lived a sinless life and that One is the Lord Jesus the Christ. It is only by and through Him that we can be saved. If He has not been rasised, then neither will any of us.

The Instructor

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Gamble how? By doing less heinous things?

If that's what it means, then let's all gamble like we're in Las Vegas.

Why ?

I don't like to be deceived.
I want to follow after the truth rather than be deceived by a cheating lie.

Beside every second in eternity that Satan is tormented will be another second of rejoicing to those of us thrilled at God's final victory.

It is tragedy that some deceived humans will co-partake of his defeat because they refuse to get off of his train to perdition. We share the gospel that they may be saved in the truth.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Mankind is unable to master even one of these three, much less all three. There is only One that has done it and lived a sinless life and that One is the Lord Jesus the Christ. It is only by and through Him that we can be saved. If He has not been rasised, then neither will any of us.

The Instructor

I disagree.
Mankind has the potential of this so-called "Christ" and more, imho.

Originally posted by sonship
Why ?

I don't like to be deceived.
I want to follow after the truth rather than be deceived by a cheating lie.

Beside every second in eternity that Satan is tormented will be another second of rejoicing to those of us thrilled at God's final victory.

It is tragedy that some deceived humans will co-partake of his defeat because they refuse to get off of his train to perdition. We share the gospel that they may be saved in the truth.

Oh, so this is how it's going to be. I will make points and you will just spout unrelated religious cliches that are unrelated to what I said. You remind me of someone...

...hi jaywill.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I disagree.
Mankind has the potential of this so-called "Christ" and more, imho.

You disagree to your own peri. "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

YouTube

The instructor

Oh, so this is how it's going to be. I will make points and you will just spout unrelated religious cliches that are unrelated to what I said. You remind me of someone...

I don't think what I wrote was either clichés or unrelated.

...hi jaywill.

Hi SwissGambit.

Explain why my post as unrelated.