An Invitation

Originally posted by HandyAndy
Does the book of life exclude liars as well as murderers? Does God equate lying with killing?

Does the book of life exclude liars as well as murderers? Does God equate lying with killing?

As I said, I would try to make further comments on this related to the OP.

The book of life does not mean only, ie the book containing the names of those who live everlastingly. It means those swallowed up by Divine life, finally blended with God, thoroughly united with God to be sons of God like Jesus Christ.

Life is God Himself. I mean the real and ultimate LIFE is God Himself. And His eternal purpose is to dispense Himself into His creature man so that man becomes like Jesus Christ the Firstborn Son of God.

The many born sons of God have a destination and destiny to be like Christ the Firstborn Son of God -

"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Romans 8:29)

Eventually, those whose names were recorded in the book of life are completely saved from all the effects of the fall of man, including lying, murdering and every other sin.

Satan who was created perfect in wisdom had a great perfection and totally corrupted it in order to try to be "like the Most High" in the way of rebellion and revolt.

After it was manifest how rotten he became as one attempting to take all his perfection to rebel against the Most High Creator, God created another creature - man. And God gave this man an opportunity that the high being that became Satan never had. That is to be "organically" united with God possessing God's very life and nature.

So you have the created man placed before "the tree of life" to take God INTO his being. And in the end you have after a long war, the saved people written in "the book of life" and eating of that "tree of life". They become sons of God to God's glory, to Satan's everlasting shame.

Before the creation of the universe [though some may philosophically object to the use of the word "before" ] God had a purpose to have sons before Him without spot or blemish or any defilement of sin or foreign particle of any sort.

Right here - "Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love. Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Epesians 1:4,5)

You see "before the foundation of the world" strongly implies that God's "good pleasure" in Himself even before He created the "foundation of the world" IE. the universe, was to have sons who share His life and nature.

Ephesians 1:4,5 also implies that based upon this good pleasure and desire of the Divine heart of God, the universe was created.

If this is a true interpretation of that passage then we may well consider the entire history of Satan as a part of God's overall providence and sovereign plan.

The tree of life, the book of life all mean the building of God Himself into man and the swallowing up of man in the divine life of God to produce His sons - sons headed up by Jesus Christ the Firstborn Son.

See how Paul says that the saved will be "swallowed up by [ZOE] life"?

" ... we do not desired to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." (2 Cor. 5:4)

And again in First Corinthians 15:53 - "Death has been swallowed up unto victory."

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. And when this corruptible will put on incorruption and this mortal will put on immortality, then the word which is written will come to pass, 'Death has been swallowed up unto victory.' "

Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"

I stop here.

Originally posted by sonship

Does the book of life exclude liars as well as murderers? Does God equate lying with killing?

As I said, I would try to make further comments on this related to the OP.

The [b]book of life does not mean only, ie the book containing the names of those who live everlastingly. It means those swallowed up by Divine life, fi ...[text shortened]... .' "

Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" [/b]

I stop here.[/b]

"Request: To those tempted to trot in pet questions, please remain on topic or begin threads of your own. Thank you."

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Request: To those tempted to trot in pet questions, please remain on topic or begin threads of your own. Thank you."

I have no pet questions, Bobby. Doesn't eternal punishment in hell relate to the topic?

Originally posted by HandyAndy
I have no pet questions, Bobby. Doesn't eternal punishment in hell relate to the topic?

The topic is "... the biblical account of the angelic creation in eternity past; Lucifer's arrogant rebellion; the third of the angelic host who shared his desire to replace the very God who created them; and its impact on human history." (OP)

Andy, the first three of these events occurred in eternity past; the fourth is occurring in time. Alternative destinations in eternity future will in all likelihood become part of our discussion following the sequence suggested in the original post.

Before time and the universe existed, the eternal triune God who has no beginning or end chose to create a large host of rational angelic creatures who would reside with Him. Colossians 1:16-17 (New American Standard Bible) 6 "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." In the Book of Revelation 5:11b their number is described as "myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands."

In speaking to Job God confirmed that the angels preexisted creation: Job 38:4-7 (NASB) 4 "Where were you [Job] when I [God] laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5 Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6 On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars [angels] sang together And all the sons of God [the entire angelic creation] shouted for joy?" They "shouted for joy" when the universe, "the heavens and earth", were created: Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

This brief biblical account of the angelic creation in eternity past will be followed by biblical documentation of the many differences between angels and men. The one vital characteristic men and angels have in common is self determination.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby

Before time and the universe existed, the eternal triune God who has no beginning or end chose to create a large host of rational angelic creatures who would reside with Him.

I would add confirmation here, also from Revelation, that the Bible shows a government committed to angelic beings who are the "elders" or most ancient beings God created.

In the vision of God as the Creator John sees twenty four thrones around the throne of the Creator.

"And around the throne there were twenty-four thrones, and upon the throne twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and upon their heads golden crowns."

Many hold these twenty-four elders to be either elders of the Israel or of the Christian church. Neither is the case. I would teach that they are the elders of CREATION. For the chapter is about God the Creator. The last verse in chapter 4 underscores that this is primarily a vision about God the Creator -

"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created."

It is from this class of beings the angel that became Satan was derived. That is the eldermost, and most ancient beings God created and endowed with some ruling authority over His creation, as seen by the "thrones" and the "crowns" they possess.

The elders here are not the elders of the church but the elders of the angels, because here, before the Lord's second coming, they are sitting on thrones already (cf. Matt. 19:28; Rev. 20:4). Among God's creation the angels are the most ancient ones. Their elders are the elders of the whole creation of God. (from footnote 4(2), Rev. 4 - Recovery Version)

From this class of the elders of the ancient angels came the being who became Satan. "Lucifer" is the Latin for "Daystar" I believe.

I don't mean we know only 24 existed. This number suggests their ruling with administrative authority similar perhaps to David's way of dividing the priests and Levites into groups of 24 each. That these being sit on thrones with crowns suggest their ruling of the universe until the millennial kingdom, when authority to rule the earth will be given as reward to the overcoming saints of God and Christ among human beings (Hebrews 2:5-9; Rev. 2:26-27; 20:4).

One of the ancient "elders" of all God's creation rebelled against his Creator and led away one third of the angels of God to join him.

"And another sign was seen in heaven; and behold, there was a great red dragon, ... And his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth. ..." (See Revelation 12:3,4)

One of the ancient angelic administrators appointed over the creation on behalf of God.

In the vision John is not AMONG the elders. Rather he witnesses them. This is one reason why the 24 elders cannot be the elders of the Christian church. The apostle John being one of the original 12 disciples surely would be an elder of the whole Church. Since he is not among them, they must be "elders" of another type.

The most ancient of the oldest beings created by God, vested with reigning authority until man is vested with it without disobedience of Adam's failure, is indicated here.

The casting of their crowns before the throne of God indicates their realization that only through their Creator could they possibly be equiped to be kings over His universe. They owe all to God the Most High.

"The twenty-four elders will fall before Him who sits upon the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever; and they will cast their crowns before the throne saying,

You are worthy, our Lord and God to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created." (Rev. 4:10,11)

This was NOT the attitude of one of them who became Satan. Rather he took his high position and sought to make Himself "like the Most High" . This being became Satan, the Devil who deceives the whole inhabited earth.

Cont. latter

There is but one source of authority from which we know anything about creation, and that is God's Word which is contained in a book we call the Bible. Genesis 1:1 states that "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", and we read also in Colossians 1:16,17 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

As to the question whether the angelic hosts were witness to the creation of heaven and earth I think the answer lies in the verses above. They(the angels)were not witnesses of creation, but were part of creation. A simple reading of Colossians 1:16 makes it plain that everything that was created whether in heaven or on earth was created in the beginning. But not necessarily. Ciphering out the exact sequence isn't that easy.

But then, that is where things begin to get interesting.

Many questions begin to arise. When did Lucifer rebel? What were the effects of that rebellion on creation? Did the angels witness the creation of man? If the angels were created before the creation of the heaven and the earth where did they reside? If God exists eternally without beginning, where did He reside prior to the creation of heaven?

I will attempt to answer those questions if and when it becomes possible. We'll see how things develop. Truthfully, after reading and rereading this post I'm not sure those questions need answering. God created everything in existence, without question.

Originally posted by josephw
There is but one source of authority from which we know anything about creation, and that is God's Word which is contained in a book we call the Bible. Genesis 1:1 states that "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", and we read also in Colossians 1:16,17 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible ...[text shortened]... not sure those questions need answering. God created everything in existence, without question.

Do you think God created heaven as in the third heavens ?
All things in heaven Colossians says God created.
What is your thought about heaven itself being created?

It is a genuine question.

Originally posted by sonship
Do you think God created heaven as in the third heavens ?
All things in heaven Colossians says God created.
What is your thought about heaven itself being created?

It is a genuine question.

I hear the genuineness in the question. I appreciate that. It motivates me to give it my best answer.

What I understand about heaven, and the heavens, comes from the Bible as best as I understand it. In the beginning there was only one heaven created, and the earth. But then something happened. I will refer to that later.

There are now three heavens, Biblically speaking. The first is our atmosphere immediately surrounding the earth. Then the second heaven, which is all of the space in the universe. The third heaven is where God resides, and is outside of the material universe.

What is most interesting is how the account of creation progresses from the point of the original act of creation, i.e. "...God created the heaven and the earth", Reveal Hidden Content, and what follows from verse 2 of Genesis 1.

It is a held belief that verse two, "And the earth was without form, and void;..", is a description of what happened to the earth after a violent upheaval. Possibly as a result of the rebellion by Lucifer and the number of angels that were persuaded by him that he had a better way.

Isaiah 14:13,14
"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

I digress. Did I answer your question sufficiently?

Originally posted by josephw

What I understand about heaven, and the heavens, comes from the Bible as best as I understand it. In the beginning there was only one heaven created, and the earth. But then something happened. I will refer to that later.

I think your specific answer must be in this paragraph because you say "only one heaven created." I guess you mean HEAVEN was also created.

Thanks for your thoughts here josephw. I would like to ad to the other paragraphs Zechariah 12:1 which shows God stretching forth the heavens first and then laying the foundation of the earth.

"The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel, Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him."

If sequence is indicated this would mean God stretched out the universe and afterwards created the earth. I think this reminds me of Genesis 1:1 -

At this time I would probably lean towards saying the heaven of heavens, whatever kind of realm that is, was also created.

Now I want add some more to HandyAndy's inquirey which I think I can relate to the thread.

Originally posted by HandyAndy
I have no pet questions, Bobby. Doesn't eternal punishment in hell relate to the topic?

Doesn't eternal punishment in hell relate to the topic?

The punishment of an eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt.25:41)

"Then He [Christ] will say to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

I spoke of Revelation 4 as a vision concerning God the Creator. In the vision John sees a sea of glass before the throne of God.

"And before the throne there was as it were a glassy sea like crystal; .." (Rev. 4:6).

This glassy sea before the throne of God must signify the judgment of God prepared for all unreconciled sinners - angelic, demonic, or human. The clearness as crystal probably indicates that God is crystally clear about all things which fall short of His own eternally righteous being. There is no obscurity whatsoever with God on any moral level.

The glassy sea is not of water but of fire as is indicated in Revelation 15:2.

"And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire and those who come away victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God." (Rev. 15:2)

The glassy sea before God the Creator is of judging fire. The "eternal fire" is the "eternal punishment" prepared for the devil and his angels. In Revelation 15:2 the saints of God who overcame Antichrist are seen standing upon (its shore) or above it with harps of enjoyment to signify these humans do not join Satan there but have overcome through Christ's salvation.

The standing on the glassy sea mingled with fire instantly reminds us of the Hebrews standing on the dry side of the Red Sea in Exodus while Pharoah and his pursuing army were drowned in judgment under its terrible waves.

God is crystal clear about all things against His holiness and eternal authority. "And there is no creature that is not manifest before Him, but all things are naked and laid bare to the eyes of Him to whom we are to give our account." (Hebrews 4:13)

The sea of glass, the sea of glass mingled with fire becomes the lake of fire. In Daniel we see before God's throne a stream or river of fire flowing out apparently sweeping all rebellion against God into a place of judgment.

"I watched until thrones were set, And the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was like white snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool;

His throne was flames of fire. A stream of fire issued forth and came forth before Him.

Thousands of thousands ministered to Him, And ten thousands of ten thousands stood before Him. The court of judgment sat, And the books were opened. " (Daniel 7:9,10)

The stream of fire must be that sea of glass mingled with fire that will sweep all sinful things into a kind of universal trash can. It was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Even as far back as Daniel he prophecies that a beast (Antichrist) the last major servant of the devil, is given to the fire - " ... I watched until the beast was slain and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire." (See Dan. 7:11)

Man should not accompany Satan and his hosts into this everlasting trash can of God. We humans should be saved through the redeeming death and victorious resurrection of Jesus the Son of God.

Originally posted by josephw
There is but one source of authority from which we know anything about creation, and that is God's Word which is contained in a book we call the Bible. Genesis 1:1 states that "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", and we read also in Colossians 1:16,17 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and ...[text shortened]... I'm not sure those questions need answering. God created everything in existence, without question.

In speaking to Job God confirmed that the angels preexisted creation: Job 38:4-7 (NASB) 4 "Where were you [Job] when I [God] laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5 Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6 On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars [angels] sang together And all the sons of God [the entire angelic creation] shouted for joy?" They "shouted for joy" when the universe, "the heavens and earth", were created: Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

Originally posted by josephw
"As to the question whether the angelic hosts were witness to the creation of heaven and earth I think the answer lies in the verses above. They(the angels)were not witnesses of creation, but were part of creation..."

Joe, perhaps we'll be able to revisit this point of difference with respect to our understandings of the biblical account of creation once the topic sequence suggested in the original post is completed. The Bible records four distinct beginnings:

A) John 1:1 "In the beginning [which was not a true beginning since God is eternal, self-existent and has no beginning or end] was the Word [logos] and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." B) The creation or origination of the angels at some point in eternity past before the creation of the universe. C) Genesis 1:1 documents the creation of the heavens and earth [hashamsyim, in the plural meaning the universe which was created as the domain of the angels]. During this time Lucifer rebelled against God and enticed one third of the angelic host to follow him (as revealed in Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28 and Revelation 12). This prehistoric revolt took place on planet earth bringing utter chaos upon it. This planet was enshrouded in darkness without light or heat causing the earth's waters to freeze into an ice pack as part of God's judgment. Before the earth could be inhabited again the restoration recorded in Genesis 1:2 would be necessary. D) Fourth beginning, following this restoration, the creation of the human race. Next: Lucifer's trial, sentence, appeal and the role of human volition.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]In speaking to Job [i]God confirmed that the angels preexisted

I consider carefully words of Scripture Grampy. And I do not have a major dispute here. But "the foundation of the earth" of Job 38:4-7 is not quite the same as "the foundation of the world [cosmos]" of Ephesians 1:4.

I have to agree that "the foundation of the EARTH" was lain before the witnessing rejoicing angels. I have to think a bit to know if "the foundation of the EARTH" there includes all other things in the universe.

Zechariah says " .. Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and LAYS THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH ...".

I have to, at least, consider if the sequence for the angels rejoicing at God laying the foundation of the earth, according to this passage, would mean some time after God "stretches forth the heavens".

I have written already that the angels are the most ancient of the beings created by God. The overall ancientness of the angels we agree on.

This paragraph from G.H. Pember's book Earth's Earliest Ages has always expressed to me the kind of humility we need on this subject. That is since so much is not clearly told us by Scripture beyond puzzle pieces we have to put together.

"Let us, then, consider the scanty hints which the Bible seems to offer in regard to this great mystery. But we must tread lightly and rapidly over the bridge which we shall attempt to throw across the foaming torrent: for we cannot be sure of its foundation: nay, in the darkness of the night there may also be serious defects in it construction. Yet the revelation to which we shall refer was given for our learning, and, like all Scripture, is profitable, even if we fail to grasp the secret contained in it, provided we handle it with reverence and fear ( 2 Tim. iii. 16). For the contemplation of such a theme gives us some idea of the ineffable magnitude of the events, past and future, by which time is bounded, and the countless millions of actors concerned in them ..."

[ Earth's Earliest Ages, G.H. Pember, Kregel, pg. 36 ]

Two passages have been opened up the believers about Satan's origin. Both passages concern his revolt. And both use a human ruler as a kind of backround.

Often critics of this view attempt to prove that these passages only refer to human beings. But we see in the New Testament that Jesus Christ spoke TO a human being but addressed Satan who was working behind the human being.

IE> When the disciple Peter attempted to get Jesus to feel sorry for Himself so as to avoid crucifixion Jesus sharply rebuked him calling him Satan. He knew that behind Peter's "good" suggesting was lurking to operation of Satan within his human opinion.

"And Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, God be merciful to You, Lord! This shall by no means happen to You!

But He [Jesus] turned and said to Peter, Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men." (Matt. 16:22,23 RcV)

God in Christ spoke to the man Peter yet addressed Satan the subtle one lurking behind. In the same way in each of the OT passages an earthly despot is talked about but Satan the original despot of the universe is the real target of the prophetic utterance.

And some of the things spoken would only be true of a superhuman being.


Isaiah 14 speaks of Satan's sin against God's authority.
Ezekiel 28 speaks of Satan's sin against God's holiness.