1. Joined
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    15 Dec '07 09:54
    there are two scenarios, one in which god exists, and one in which god does not exist. where god exists, he must have been created by something, he can not possibly have created himself. but he is god and he can do anything, so he created the universe. in the second scenario, there is the big bang, but it had to come from somewhere. at some point in time, matter and space was created by something, it can not possibly create itself. either way, something impossible has happened some point in time, either god created himself and created everything else, or the universe created itself and sort of cuts out the middle man (god). why is "it is not scientifically possible" sometimes an argument against theism? this is an unbiased post from an agnostic but what makes anything about science possible? NEITHER creation or science is "possible". saying that god is not possible is also an argument against oneself, in itself.
  2. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    15 Dec '07 10:17
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    there are two scenarios, one in which god exists, and one in which god does not exist. where god exists, he must have been created by something, he can not possibly have created himself. but he is god and he can do anything, so he created the universe. in the second scenario, there is the big bang, but it had to come from somewhere. at some point in ti ...[text shortened]... "possible". saying that god is not possible is also an argument against oneself, in itself.
    Both of your arguments presuppose causality, which presupposes the existence of time. This is not valid in the BB theory (since time is a property of the universe, and could not precede it). Who knows for the God idea.
  3. Standard membershavixmir
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    15 Dec '07 10:47
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    there are two scenarios, one in which god exists, and one in which god does not exist. where god exists, he must have been created by something, he can not possibly have created himself. but he is god and he can do anything, so he created the universe. in the second scenario, there is the big bang, but it had to come from somewhere. at some point in ti ...[text shortened]... "possible". saying that god is not possible is also an argument against oneself, in itself.
    If there is a God, he had to come from somewhere.

    If there's a big bang, then you have an expanding, shrinking universe system like thing. Which has always been (in one form or another) and will always be (in one form or another).
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    15 Dec '07 18:00
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Both of your arguments presuppose causality, which presupposes the existence of time. This is not valid in the BB theory (since time is a property of the universe, and could not precede it). Who knows for the God idea.
    what makes you think time can not exist elsewhere also?
  5. Joined
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    15 Dec '07 18:04
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    If there is a God, he had to come from somewhere.

    If there's a big bang, then you have an expanding, shrinking universe system like thing. Which has always been (in one form or another) and will always be (in one form or another).
    what if god has existed forever and will always exist?
  6. Standard memberknightmeister
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    15 Dec '07 18:13
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    what if god has existed forever and will always exist?
    This is the whole point! God has always existed and never not existed. Only things that have beginnings need to "come from" somewhere. But if God has no beginning....?
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    15 Dec '07 18:28
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    This is the whole point! God has always existed and never not existed. Only things that have beginnings need to "come from" somewhere. But if God has no beginning....?
    That's the world's biggest cop out. If you can believe that God had no beginning and he's just always existed why not believe that the world always existed and had no beginning? How is it possible that God can create itself but the Earth can't?

    God is WAY more complicated it should be harder for "him" tp arise on its own...
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    15 Dec '07 19:252 edits
    That's the world's biggest cop out. If you can believe that God had no beginning and he's just always existed why not believe that the world always existed and had no beginning? How is it possible that God can create itself but the Earth can't?

    It is not a cop out Dude.

    As much as it may break our poor proud hearts to have to admit it, there is a divine Person who always was and always will be.

    You asked how is it possible that God can create itself but the earth cannot. I didn't notice anyone saying God created God.

    God is just ever existing and self existing. Time, Space, the Universe all these things are provided by God for OUR need. And it is provided out of His love for us.

    We need these things to exist. He has provided these things for our existence. He just is and is eternal and all powerful.

    If you're wondering how in the world one may react to such a Being .. I suggest love and worship for a start.
  9. Joined
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    15 Dec '07 19:50
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]That's the world's biggest cop out. If you can believe that God had no beginning and he's just always existed why not believe that the world always existed and had no beginning? How is it possible that God can create itself but the Earth can't?

    It is not a cop out Dude.

    As much as it may break our poor proud hearts to have to admit it, the ...[text shortened]... how in the world one may react to such a Being .. I suggest love and worship for a start.[/b]
    what makes god so powerful? what makes him special? did he just wake up one day and discover he was god?
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    15 Dec '07 20:022 edits
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    what makes god so powerful? what makes him special? did he just wake up one day and discover he was god?
    what makes god so powerful? what makes him special? did he just wake up one day and discover he was god?


    I don't know. I don't think God woke up to discover that He was God.

    However, you have heard of E=MC2 from Einstien. It is an equation which tells us that energy and matter are related in certain kind of predictable way. I think it says that energy and matter are the same thing in different states and that there is a conversion formula.

    Now suppose we took this creative power of God and were able to convert it into moral power. Suppose moral purity and creative power were two aspects of the same thing.

    In all human history who do you think would be the most likely candidate to express this coverted creative power into moral power?

    If the power of such a being could be converted to moral equivalent, who in human history might you vote for as an expression of that converted power?
  11. Joined
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    15 Dec '07 20:16
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b] what makes god so powerful? what makes him special? did he just wake up one day and discover he was god?


    I don't know. I don't think God woke up to discover that He was God.

    However, you have heard of E=MC2 from Einstien. It is an equation which tells us that energy and matter are related in certain kind of predictable way. I think it sa ...[text shortened]... equivalent, who in human history might you vote for as an expression of that converted power?[/b]
    is that a rhetorical question, an open ended question or one of those questions where you already know the answer and expect me to answer correctly? 😕
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    15 Dec '07 20:27
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    If there is a God, he had to come from somewhere.

    If there's a big bang, then you have an expanding, shrinking universe system like thing. Which has always been (in one form or another) and will always be (in one form or another).
    Just so I know in your two statements you have the universe always
    being here in one form or another, which is eternal, but you make
    the claim God cannot be too. Is there a reason why God cannot
    be here the say way at all times, and the universe can be in ever
    changing forms? Are you saying something different and I'm missing
    it?
    Kelly
  13. Joined
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    15 Dec '07 20:331 edit
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    is that a rhetorical question, an open ended question or one of those questions where you already know the answer and expect me to answer correctly? 😕
    is that a rhetorical question, an open ended question or one of those questions where you already know the answer and expect me to answer correctly?

    You may answer in good conscience any way. Or you may not answer and take no position.

    Of course no position is the easiest to defend.

    My vote would be for Jesus of Nazareth.
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    15 Dec '07 20:34
    It boils down to this: either this planet was formed from something incalculably small that grew and developed over millions/billions of years into what we have now or something from outside of time created us.

    Notice that we don't know specifically what either of these two things are, per se, but they are the modes in which whatever we don't know about worked.

    You don't have to know everything about evolution to determine how much more likely it is to have taken place...so I guess you all know my opinion if you didn't before
  15. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    16 Dec '07 01:43
    Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
    what makes you think time can not exist elsewhere also?
    It's called Minkowski SpaceTime. It's a derivation from the Theory of Relativity.

    Where exactly is this "elsewhere" you allude to? Somewhere outside the universe?
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